In response to Marions questions about what action could be taken, as for
the idea of a No Border camp in Greece again,I think it would be something
worth thinking about, because:
- It is perhaps one of the best ways we have at the moment to mobilise
many people to go somewhere and bring attention to an issue. This is
essentially symbolic BUT a NoBorder camp has the potential for some
lasting effects, such as InfoMobil and Calais Migrant Solidarity, making
the everyday street solidarity more possible.
- In certain locations it can strengthen the connections between people
without papers and people with papers.
A NoBorder camp is not such a good idea because:
- The notion of NoBorders in Greece doesn't seem to have a huge amount of
support, because of the way radical politics plays out in Greece.
What do people think?
> Dear all,
>
> very good to see this discussion on the list! And I agree, that it's
> obviously needed to get active with international solidarity - taking
> into account the different needs as Clandestina already described.
>
> There are a lot of activities in Greece already. We somehow tried to
> contributed with smaller projects that came after the Nobordercamp
> Lesvos 2009 to be more continously present at the different hotspots in
> Greece:
> - The infomobile was started in 2010 and since then there have been
> several visits to Athens, Evros, Igoumenitsa and Patras. On it's Blog it
> documents regularly the situation of refugees and migrants in Greece:
> http://infomobile.w2eu.net/ It is besides the brilliant website of
> clandestina (http://clandestinenglish.wordpress.com/) one of the main
> sources that documents in English the situation of refugees and migrants
> in Greece.
> - There have been several reports to document the situation
> (http://w2eu.info/greece.en/articles/greece-reports.en.html)
> - With the Webguide w2eu.info we try to contribute with direct
> information about Dublin II and Greece and made again a new leaflet with
> useful contacts (http://w2eu.info/dublin2.en.html) for the journey.
> - The infomobile has done a lot of direct support of people in very
> different and difficult situations. One part was for example to look for
> the missing and dead at the Greek borders.
>
> Compared to all the activities inside Greece itself on a daily basis
> this is not too much. And in the last months we had often the feeling,
> that this is not enough. We see there are activities in Greece - but we
> feel somehow a lack of international solidarity and also feel ourselves
> insufficiant compared to the huge needs. Since the Dublin-deportations
> to Greece have been stopped there is somehow a tendency in the
> antiracist movements of "Yes we know, the situation in Greece is quite
> bad for refugees - but everybody knows already." This does not mean that
> people don't care about it, but it shows somehow that there is a new
> dimension. And this dimension raises more complex requirements than just
> public scandalisation. If I understood it right this is somehow what
> little tale refered to as a experience of Calais.
>
> But what we talk about is even more complex and probably this is what
> paralizes somehow: there is a need for an answer to an attack that
> deeply tries to undermine social standards not only in Greece. It is
> clear that it has a European dimension - but we have not had a brilliant
> idea how to try to answer to the clear need of a bigger wave of
> international activities that take all the three angles into account
> that clandestina mentioned: anticapitalist, antiracist, antifascist. We
> have to rethink the standards of actions probably.
>
> I think we all agree that this is strongly needed. But the big question
> is somehow in what directions we should get active. Just to raise some
> directions we could think of:
>
> Does it make sense to mobilise for a Noborder 2013 to Greece to tackle
> this links? But this means also we have to deal with all the
> inner-conflicts of the movements, to organize a lot of infrastructural
> or whatever stuff etc.. And it was also mentioned that we have in these
> kind of actions like in demonstrations often the tendency to try to
> scandalize and/or to adress a certain public. But we have to go beyond
> this (like in 2009 in the paralell Noborderactivities in Calais and
> Lesvos that have been very different from former Nobordercamps).
>
> Does it make sense to have something less concentrated on the camp-idea
> and more in a mixture of swarming, direct contacts with various people
> in the movements and on the street, to try to figure out directly what
> ways of solidarity would be needed? And somehow as one step in building
> up longer lasting solidarity structures?
>
> Does it make sense to take action in other European countries in
> solidarity. Somehow it was a try with blockupy Frankfurt to block the
> ECB and to make it with a clear focus on different struggles. How could
> such an action be directly linked to the struggles in Greece?
>
> Does it make sense to call people for direct support in one way or
> another and to do a declaration combined with something useful? Seen
> from the perspective of our activities on the refugees matter: after
> trying to abolish Dublin II and after seeing that deportations to Greece
> have been stopped but Greece became a dead end for many, it is probably
> the right time to declare somehow that we will not accept the
> fragmentation of social rights in Europe and beyond. Also if this means
> direct support to cross borders. Somehow to call for disobedience in a
> sense of abolishing these borders and fragmentations on a daily level.
>
> Is there a need of somehow all-at-once? And we cannot think about
> something like a huge demonstration if it does not contain elements of
> very practical direct support?
>
> Honestly spoken, I am in the moment not sure what would be the direction
> and in which kind of idea to invest most energy. Somehow it seems we
> really need this discussion right now to figure out how to find
> international answers. Only one seems to be sure: the question of equal
> rights for migrants cannot be tackled without taking into account that
> social rights are under attack.
>
> I am very happy that we at least name the needs right now and start a
> discussion. We should probably try to bring this debate into more
> networks and maybe to discuss it, but not too long and than to do it
> also like usual: just try an option and than another one and another
> one... And I would be very happy to read more opinions about this.
>
> All the best,
> marion
>
> Am 09.08.2012 20:10, schrieb alli alln:
>> The movement in Greece /is/ taking action.
>> There are many important things going on right now, on a daily basis
>> and throughout the country, some greater, some smaller,
>> in any case too many to be counted and translated: streetfights with
>> fascists, antifa demos, solidarity kitchens, discussions, assemblies...
>> even the official left (part of Syriza) have started to realize that
>> they have to do something, and they issued a decent official statement
>> condemning the latest pogrom against immigrants in Athens...
>>
>> In our call in our previous messages, we were referring to the need
>> for international solidarity actions which will *not* follow the
>> pattern of last year's confusionist "WE ARE ALL GREEKS" slogan...
>> There is need for campaigns that are *at once* anticapitalist,
>> antifascist and antiracist.
>>
>> 1. *anticapitalist* - to defend the population in Greece who are
>> victims of the structural adjustment plans of the IMF, the ECB etc
>>
>> 2. *anticapitalist / antifascist* - to defend the social movement
>> which is resisting the structural adjustments, a movement which is
>> under attack by the new fascist populist "movement'
>>
>> 3.*anticapitalist / antifascist / antiracist* - to defend the
>> immigrants. The fascist movement derives its strength from the
>> orchestrated attacks against immigrants.
>>
>> In this (schematically presented) pyramid, the lower and middle
>> classes are being targeted by the measures, the people who resist are
>> being targeted also by the fascists, and immigrants are the victims of
>> capitalism, fascism and racism at once.
>>
>> As Italy and Spain are slowly going down Greece's path, ideas from
>> international friends are welcome.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 10:21 AM, <little_tale@riseup.net
>> <mailto:little_tale@riseup.net>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Whether a big list is the right place to have this discussion,
>> this is an
>> important discussion to have and thanks for the emails so far. I'm
>> writing
>> a reply humbly - as someone not in Greece (but who has spent quite
>> some
>> time there)- because to read about what is going on makes me wanna
>> scream.
>>
>> What must happen surely - alongside discussion and analysis - is
>> action?
>>
>> As has been pointed out so far, there is a (possibly weakening?
>> nonetheless large) antagonistic movement in Greece. Among this
>> movement,
>> regardless of the general trend towards more visible and acceptable
>> fascism/racism in public political culture, surely it is within this
>> movement that there is the possibility - immediately - for action;
>> to make
>> the connection between struggle?
>>
>> Action has different meanings. Often it seems to end up meaning
>> analysis,
>> or a focus on getting the right message out into 'the public', or
>> a focus
>> on doing these things first. But there is the politics that happens
>> exactly in the place where you are, outside your door, that takes
>> you onto
>> the streets, meeting and being with people who face the oppression
>> of
>> migration controls first hand. In Calais for example, this kind of
>> street
>> solidarity has gone on ALONGSIDE analysis.
>>
>> I say all this fully aware of the more difficult situation of all
>> people
>> in Greece People in Greece, but tell us what we can do about this,
>> to make
>> us stand together, now?
>>
>>
>>
>> > OK! So our approach is close to Akis'!
>> >
>> > And our common problem remains. This list might not be the place
>> to decide
>> > possible international actions for the No Border network, but
>> what has
>> > been
>> > happening in the last period in Greece should be discussed
>> everywhere. If
>> > it is not too late already.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 11:09 AM, akis gavriilidis
>> > <cr33396@telenet.be <mailto:cr33396@telenet.be>>wrote:
>> >
>> >> On 8/08/2012 10:57, alli alln wrote:
>> >>
>> >> 2. Our initial message by no means "implied...that these raids
>> were
>> >> ordered by the Troika". We are not referring to any conspiracy
>> theory of
>> >> evil foreigners.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> No, it didn't. But *Alain Morice's* initial message by all
>> means did,
>> >> and
>> >> that was the message I was referring to.
>> >>
Bron : little_tale@riseup.net
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