Interview realised by the International Relations Commission of the
Italian Anarchist Federation (CRINT-FAI) ---- With this interview, wewish to present to international publics the Assembly group that isactive in the city of Kharkiv where it produces an onlinecounter-information newspaper, to which several links are provided inthe text of the interview, and operates in local solidarity networks ina city that is currently being bombed every day. Being our first contactwith this reality, it is an important opportunity to know the opinionsof this group on the controversial international debates on which ourFederation has recently expressed its positions, and on the concreteneeds of those who perform social, solidarity and humanitarian work notfar from the front line.CRINT-FAI: Given the lack of information with Italian publics on thesituation in Kharkiv, can you tell something on the history of yourgroup and your insertion in local political dynamics?Assembly: In general, we have really been active since March 30, 2020 -as soon as there was a feeling in the air that this habitual status quohad finally cracked. The start of a global pandemic took us by surprise!It was unusual to stay at home all the time. At some of our comrade'sworkplaces, the salary was cut by 20% and there was a fear of stafflayoffs. But a couple of weeks after the start of quarantine, shestarted development of our website and so began to talk about acutesocial problems and help people unite to directly help each other in theface of a crisis.Our reasoning went something like this: if at least 10% of thepopulation of our city understands, for example, the public transportsystem better than the mayor and the city council do, then why do weneed their administration? Something like that... The journal soonbecame a place where the peaceful segment of social struggle andself-organization could meet with the radical underground, and began toreally live up to its name. We covered street events, workplacestruggles, and urban development issues in our metropolis. We have alsotried to restore historical memory on the revolutionary workers' traditions.Since the outbreak of hostilities, our magazine has become a platformfor presenting and coordinating self-organized humanitarian activities,as well as for highlighting how the local ruling class is benefitingfrom this massacre. And if in the last year we had 20-30 thousand visitsper month, then since the beginning of spring it's jumped to between 80to 120 thousand!CRINT-FAI: You managed to keep activity alive during the conflict. Howis it deployed in daily work?Assembly: Fortunately or unfortunately, we are the only anarchistcollective in Ukraine whose fame has grown significantly during these 6terrible months. Probably, because we give useful information forworkers in their daily confrontation with bosses or officials, and ourposition with the condemnation of both warring states - the aggressorcommits open genocide against everything Ukrainian, the «small sufferingdemocratic victim» keeps most of the population as hostages to show morebloody pictures abroad demanding more money, also robbing its serfs byall available means, while not a single Russian missile has yet flowninto the government quarter - is quite close to those who have nothingto defend in this bleak hole with no clear future. The main problem thatis such support does not transform into a desire to study anarchism andspread its ideas - even grassroots volunteers and other active parts ofsociety are maximally de-ideologized here...CRINT-FAI: What about Zelensky's government? We read about the newlabour legislation. What are the implications of the state of emergencyon daily life?Assembly: If for Russia defeat in the war means some political changes(at least a palace coup, and possible disintegration into parts orpartial loss of sovereignty), the future of Ukraine seem to be very sadin any case. Long before the war, Zelensky was often compared to youngPutin not without reason, and as a result of victory, we can get aregime no less dictatorial than the Russian one. A very telling examplecame this month when he stated that the borders for men would not beopen until the end of martial law, don't caring that it's the mostpopular petition topic on his website.With regard to labour legislation, it is very indicative that we seeonly Europeans concerned about this. Because at least half of thoseemployed in Ukraine work in the informal sector, and even officiallyemployed ones rarely hear anything about the compliance with labourrights and guarantees - it all depends on individual agreements.Most of all, the working class is now worried about other things: thealready mentioned street raids for the issuing of subpoenas (the mostactive in the eastern and western borderland regions) and the need toopen departure from the country for those who are liable for militaryservice. Yes, petitions make only information sense, however it is thefirst attempts of Ukrainian workers on our memory to express their ownagenda at the nationwide level. Since street actions are now impossible,they resort to the only remaining mean of communication with theauthorities.We can only imagine how many Ukrainians would be happy if the stateloosened its grip as the result of the international anarchistmovement's campaign. If this movement had taken its anti-war statementsas more than just words, we would have seen its massive rallies foropening the borders near Ukrainian embassies many months ago. What totalk about, if even on the May Day you found more important affairs? Itseems that there is nowhere to wait for help, and one can only guess howmany more Ukrainian families will die, because they don't want to partwith each other. How do you differ from politicians if you declarethings that you are not going to fulfill?The only mass libertarian structure whose words did not differ fromdeeds is the EZLN. Shortly after the invasion, they filled the streetsof their municipalities, unconditionally condemning this aggression,calling for the immediate withdrawal of the Russian military, at thesame time not considering the Ukrainian bourgeois state as somethingprincipally better. This protest was symbolic, hardly anyone in theKremlin even saw it at all, but it seems they did the maximum that ispossible in their mountain jungle...CRINT-FAI: Are there any other activist or solidarity realities/networkswith which you are in connection that emerged during the conflict makingsocial work?Assembly: Of course, there is, and not even one. Firstly, our largeinformation partner is Telegram channel «Subpoenas giving. Kharkov» withalmost 75,000 of subscribers, appeared at the end of May, where peoplepromptly warn each other about raids on conscripts and otherarbitrariness of law enforcement structures. We also cooperate with avolunteer organization Build Help for the prompt repair of housesdamaged by shelling in poor areas. To discuss broader issues of thepost-war development, we participate in the Alternative Kharkiv (foundedexactly two years ago) and Kharkiv Loadstone (born about a month ago).It is an informal, horizontal coalition of urban planners,environmentalists, architects and local historians committed to makingour city more decentralized and less commercially oriented. The generalconcept of our joint vision was presented at the end of May.Obviously, we will be able to seriously start implementing these ideasonly when the invaders stop destroying the city with ballistic missilesevery night and 220-mm cluster rockets when people go to work - if bythat time it does not get completely empty - but there are already somesuccesses. Kharkov authorities and developers associated with them planto demolish historical buildings damaged by bombing for the constructionof commercial facilities instead of their restoration. And their attemptto finish off in this way one of the oldest houses in our city, almost200 years old, has already been stopped by the intervention of us andour readers. Monitoring of the situation must be continued daily,because they are hoping precisely for weakening our vigilance.As for solidarity at the international level, this is a completelydifferent matter. Last year, the international anarchist movement raised5,000 euros for Afghan anarchists in about a month - we received fromforeign comrades 1,500 euros in half a year. This is despite the factthat our work is in the public domain, while in that case nothing isknown about their activities either before emigration or after (althoughwe donated them too). What can be said here?CRINT-FAI: How can we help you through concrete international solidarityin humanitarian help to victims of war?Assembly: Since the occupiers have regularly bombed critical civilianinfrastructure throughout the siege, the upcoming heating season may bethe biggest problem for our places. We are now preparing a communityheating point in the house of our participant on the marginal industrialoutskirts of Kharkiv. You can support both this and the purchase ofhumanitarian goods from local farmers (though we have suspended it inAugust as funds are limited and how long the war will last is unknown).The lowest fee should be if you donate directly to our fundraiser's bankcard in dollars (here) or in euros (here), but we don't know if it isavailable from Italy.For such cases please join our main fundraising:https://www.globalgiving.org/projects/mutual-aid-alert-for-east-ukraine/CRINT-FAI: What is your position on matters of desertion and consciousobjection as for both the Ukrainian and Russian armies?Assembly: Oh, comprehensive coverage of anti-war boycott, sabotage andother direct action is the main topic of our English internationalrubric since the first days of the full-scale invasion! Along with this,we should understand that the national unity of Ukrainians aroundZelensky's power rests only on fear of an external threat. Therefore,anti-war subversive acts in Russia are indirectly a threat to theUkrainian ruling class as well, and that is why we consider itsinformational support to be an internationalist act.It should be also taken into account that despite the absence of aqualitative difference among the warring states, they differquantitatively: if all Russian soldiers stop fighting, the war will end,if Ukrainian soldiers do this, Ukraine will end. The zone of occupationbegins 20 km from the ring road of our city, and we know what thismeans: the «disappearance» of all at least a bit of active and the StoneAge for the rest of population. At the same time, after the Russiantroops mostly lost their offensive potential, a wave of socialdiscontent began to show up in Ukraine as well - we have already talkedabout this.CRINT-FAI: What effects did the war on Ukrainian anarchist and radicalmovements?Assembly: Some groups just disappeared, the rest - except for us -continue to operate as state units, but as a political entity (even iffar from anarchism) are actually dead, and no prospects for theirrevival in this capacity are now visible. It should be noted thatdifferent Ukrainian anarchists joined the army for different reasons.Black Flag rather tried to promote the anarchist agenda in the ranks ofthe military and broader defense movement. We consider their experiencevaluable, although unsuccessful, and assumptions about this wereexpressed by us in an interview from the first days of the war. Others,on the contrary, rather protect the Ukrainian state from attacks byanarchists - therefore, we treat them as negatively as we treat thestate as such.In words all of them are not for the state, but only for the Ukrainianpeople, however even such Jesuit rhetoric they cannot use in arevolutionary way. If you want help the Armed Forces, many of whosesoldiers don't even have body armor, not to mention other ammunition -okay, help them, make useful contacts for the post-war time, asMalatesta supported the Cuban rebels against Spain and the Libyan onesagainst Italy... But why even Zelensky's right-wing opponents are notshy to use every case of such injustice to undermine trust in theUkrainian authorities, while they, on the contrary, only advocateUkrainian state interests in the libertarian circles? Those who don'twant to obey any government have no reasons to see such groups as a realalternative to it, and those who love the state don't need suchschizophrenic exoticism - there are ordinary nationalist parties andmovements for them.We do not think that this would radically change the situation: theexample of the same Black Flag shows that any revolutionary agitation inthe Ukrainian troops is now meaningless, as soldiers are generallysatisfied with their salaries, quite solid even by European standards(100,000 hryvnias or about 2700 euros at the front line). Nevertheless,the majority of those who identify themselves as anarchists in Ukrainewere not even going to do this, but immediately merged with the rulingclass in a single nationalist impulse.Meanwhile, the number of the Ukrainian army is approaching a millionpeople, and a few dozen fighters under black flags are a drop in theocean, unable to demonstrate anything but their own futility andhelplessness. However, the relative success of our media in comparisonwith pre-war times also should not give us the illusion that anarchistviews have become more popular in at least one of the regions ofUkraine. We need to be ready for the fact that the political situationin the country may be like in Afghanistan, Yemen or Somalia for a verylong time, and nothing can guarantee the growth of the influence foranarchism, but the only chance for this is the refusal to flirt withsome or another authorities/politicians as a «lesser evil», and aresolute and unconditional opposition to them all. Otherwise, the masseswill increasingly perceive anarchists as strange and incomprehensibleclowns which don't need to pay attention at all.CRINT-FAI: We heard from collectives such as former OperationSolidarity, and from some Black Crosses of Eastern Europe, internationalcalls to make pressure on our respective governments for supporting theUkrainian Armed Forces, even evoking an ongoing "alliance" between thepeople and the state there. What is your opinion?Assembly: The same Zapatistas rightly noted at the very beginning of thewar: «Big capital and its "Western" governments sat down to contemplateand even to accelerate the deterioration of the situation. Once theinvasion had begun they were anxious to see whether Ukraine would resistand to calculate what they could get out of each possible outcome. Nowthat Ukraine is resisting they eagerly extend offers of "help" for whichthey will expect payment later». Western governments and themilitary-industrial complex have their own financial interests, andthese interests are not in a quick victory for Ukraine, but in makingthe war protracted. Otherwise, they would have already delivered enoughheavy weapons to Ukraine, and the war could have ended until thisautumn. From a purely everyday point of view, it would be morecomfortable for you if the West again hid its head in the sand, as inthe case of Chechnya and Syria. If you lived even one day here, mostlikely, on the contrary, would begin to blame your authorities for theongoing appeasement of the botox midget, due to which our city becomes ashooting gallery every day without any fire punishment. In any case, theobjective reality is that the Western leadership is interested preciselyin the gradual weakening of its imperialist rival without excessivelysharp confrontation.As for the collectives you mentioned, their lamentations about «freeUkraine defending the entire civilized world» are too boring to evenwaste time on their analysis. For those who are very worried about theUkrainian democracy from abroad, we can only advise to renounce theirEuropean/American citizenship, apply for Ukrainian resident card andquickly move to here for delights of life!This is not relevant to anti-war resisters in Russia and Belarus. Thesepeople are really taking a huge risk to stop this carnage, and that isenough to be grateful to them. With the exception of not numerousfar-rights, we support them regardless of whether their position ispro-Ukrainian or internationalist.Of course, our own agenda, if desired, can also be called beneficial tothe bourgeois class: mass departure of angry unreliable proletarianswill prevent a social explosion in Ukraine, which is possible in thecase of a further prolongation of the war, and European bosses are veryinterested in cheap Ukrainian labor. But where are the more favorableconditions for a strike movement - in a warring country or in a peacefulone? And why not to develop cooperative self-employment in Europe,involving Ukrainian migrants in it?CRINT-FAI: We likewise heard calls to defend "liberal democracy". Whatis your take of this concept, and how important is for you the conceptof class-struggle anarchism?Assembly: Apparently, you are talking about the Ukrainian state, if weunderstand correctly? Such speeches usually come from a comparison ofgovernment-controlled territories with total devastation, famine andwhite terror in the occupied territories of the country. But does thefact that one gang makes less outrage than another mean that hundreds ofthousands of people should die and be maimed for it, and millions ofothers should drag out a half-starved existence under bombs locked in acage? We don't think so!If we compare the government-controlled part of Ukraine with the EUcountries... Believe it or not, even the historic downtown of a typicalUkrainian city, including ours, may be a much less habitable thing thanthe Western slums. We have nothing to defend here, except for thethrones of authorities and the fields of corporations. That's why ourofficials are so afraid of the free departure: army service to defendthe plantations of the oligarchy is not the most desirable option formany soldiers but the single available income in such conditions.Ukrainians are not forced to fight by police repressions, because thosewho really don't want to do it can avoid mobilization even withoutbribes. At the same time, economic forcing is really strong: in ourcity, for example, there are 19 job seekers on each civil vacancy...CRINT-FAI: How central are gender and LGBTQ+ matters in today anarchistand radical movements in Ukraine?Assembly: Within our team there are different points of view on thisissue: someone personally identifies themselves as a feminist, someonethinks in Ukraine this topic is so discredited by the right-wingers thatit has completely lost any revolutionary potential. Before thefull-scale war, the feminist and LGBTQ+ movement in Ukraine was closelyassociated with nationalist, clerical and militaristic circles. AfterFebruary 24, those who advocated the expansion of women's service in thearmy, etc. fled en masse from Ukraine to European countries, often noteven bordering on it, and from there they call to fight men, who cannotafford the luxury of free emigration. What will be with this movementnext - we will not guess. Our activities are currently organized on aclass and territorial basis, although, if such initiatives appear, atleast partially close to our views, it would be nice to work with them.CRINT-FAI: Some comrades told us how much nationalist rhetoricpenetrated Ukrainian society, especially since 2013-14 and the Crimeawar? What are the existing or potential political spaces for politicalactivism excluding nationalism?Assembly: Anarchy is the youth of the world, and to build it first ofall by the young. Like in Italy, the problem of nationalism in EasternEurope goes hand in hand with the extinction of the nation and itssliding into senile mara. Ukraine, like Russia, before the war has longbeen a country of alcoholics, pensioners, officials and cops, and whenfree exit becomes possible, even those workers and intelligentsia whostill remain will probably go out from here, especially from thedestroyed regions. There are figures that about 100,000 men voluntarilyreturned to Ukraine from abroad since February 24. But then again - willthey stay here after the war? In general, the Ukrainian demographics arenot very conducive to the spread of libertarian ideas, as you can see.The only chance for a happy ending is such huge investments from theWest, China and Turkey that we will not only rebuild what was destroyed,but also make an economic leap from pre-war levels, which will attractmany migrants from the Global South. Then a mass working-class movement,a revolutionary situation, etc. will really become possible. But so far,even the restoration of what we had before the war is not beingseriously guaranteed, mostly promises.Beyond any doubt, in this case, interethnic conflicts are also possible.However, already in the first months of our work, we almost exclusivelysupported the protests of Arab and African students against theprovocation of bribes at the final exam. So, we hope that we will beable to find a common language with new foreigners too.CRINT-FAI: Finally, is there anything else you wish thatItalian-speaking anarchists know?Assembly: We understand that Ukrainians in Italy are treated with clearprejudice, and that Ukrainian communities are notorious for theirreactionary views. But they will never change it for the better ifanarchism in Italy is just a beautiful rhetorical figure turned into avoid. Agitate them, educate them, help them fight employers andlandlords, contact us if need to prepare texts in Ukrainian or Russian!If refugees from Africa and the Middle East are reading us, we know manyof you are angry because of Ukrainian refugees have some better statusin Europe. Please keep in mind that this is only half the truth. Theother half is that the safety and income here are comparable with yourcountries, while the cost of living is comparable to the European one.We have common interests and need to look for ways to act together!And also would love to sincerely greet the Solidarity Initiative OlgaTaratuta in France, the Final Straw Radio in the USA, Enough 14 inGermany, 161 Crew in Poland, alasbarricadas.org in Spain, aitrus.info inRussia, all other our readers, translators and donors. Your contributionto our work is startling, and we try to do the maximum that is possiblein these conditions!No borders, no nations!Peace to the huts, war to the palaces!https://www.anarchistcommunism.org/2023/07/27/ukrainian-group-assembly-explains-its-antimilitarist-positions/_________________________________________A - I N F O S N E W S S E R V I C EBy, For, and About AnarchistsSend news reports to A-infos-en mailing listA-infos-en@ainfos.ca
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