A recent book by Donatella Di Cesare, published by Einaudi with the
title "Democracy and anarchy. Power in the polis", addresses the
relationship between the theory and political system of democracy in
Greece in the 5th and 4th centuries BC and anarchism. We discuss this
with Enrico Ferri, a well-known scholar of Stirner and anarchism, but
not a superficial expert on Greek democracy, to which he has dedicated
several essays in various languages, not least a new and recent
translation and edition of Pseudo Xenophon, also known as the Old
Oligarch, published by Rubbettino. ---- D) Both in the democratic and
anarchist fields, there are not many who have addressed the
relationships between Greek democratic theory and anarchist thought.
R) It is a fact that anarchists have paid little attention to the
political, cultural and ideological phenomenon represented by Athenian
democracy. Kropotkin, for example, in the entry "Anarchism" in the 1910
Encyclopedia Britannica, when he talks about the precursors of
anarchism, makes a fleeting reference to Aristippus and Zeno, but does
not mention the political philosophy of democracy and its political
system. In the "Ethics" he cites more Greek authors, but there is no
reference to the democratic system. Things do not change if we consider
theorists such as Bakunin, Proudhon and Stirner, or the political debate
within the anarchist movement, not only European, of the nineteenth or
twentieth century.
D) Donatella Di Cesare argues that the theoretical core of ancient
democracy and that of anarchism, starting from the critique of power,
are the same. Is this comparison correct in your opinion?
R) Aristotle, in a passage from "Politics", which Di Cesare recalls,
argues that democrats "would not want any government, because free men
have no masters, but not being able to do without government, they
choose to govern and be governed in turn". It is interesting to note
that, according to Aristotle, in the democratic perspective every
political government is seen as a form of despotism. At the same time,
it is recognized that the community cannot live without being
administered, consequently the form of government (administration)
closest to non-government is chosen. Self-government is the negation of
every community system founded on a hierarchical power (arché), which
comes from above and is independent of the governed. This democratic
government, but we could define it perfectly libertarian, consists in
"governing and being governed in turn". This assumption is perfectly in
line with the other democratic principle, reported by Herodotus, through
the mouth of Megabyzus, which renders democratic freedom with the
formula né árchein né árchestai: neither command, nor be commanded.
D) In "Democracy and Anarchy" we read that "the question[of power in
democracy]is ontological, even before being political", as well as that
"democracy is always incomplete", that "it lacks certain
presuppositions", that it is always "without foundation".
R) Gorgias of Leontini, with Protagoras the greatest representative of
Sophism, maintains that "Being is not, even if it were real it would not
be comprehensible to man and if it became so it would not be expressible
and communicable", according to what Sextus Empiricus reports. In short,
he says that the question of Being, which is also the question of the
original Foundation, is not real, in any case completely absent and
extraneous to the existence and history of men.
D) What consequences does this approach have in the political sphere?
A) Gorgias also supports what we could call the law of opportunity, that
a certain choice can be more or less valid depending on the
circumstances. It is not, therefore, a matter of taking the cue from
presumed objective and founding truths, but of evaluating and choosing
correctly depending on the circumstances.
D) The so-called epistemological relativism?
A) Epistemological relativism generally means that we have different
representations of the same reality, depending on the perspectives. The
Sophistic also states that the same person, or a certain community, can
have a different representation of reality and a different approach to
it if their living conditions, geographical environment, climate or
political system change. Herodotus, for example, claims that the
Egyptians have habits and lifestyles opposite to those of the Greeks,
but only because they live with a completely original climate and river.
Hippocrates, in his treatise "On Airs, Waters and Places", states that
the Greeks settled in Asia Minor (Anatolia), have different
characteristics from the Asians of the same region, because they have
different political institutions.
D) In "Democracy and Anarchy", it almost seems that at the basis of
Greek democracy there is a modern anti-metaphysical assumption.
A) The Greeks from the 8th to the 6th century had colonized vast
territories of three continents, had circumnavigated Africa, starting
from the Red Sea; for trade they had pushed as far as Iceland and knew
much of Asia Minor. It is enough to read the histories of Herodotus,
Hippocrates or Xenophon's "Anabasis" to realize that they were perfectly
aware of the difference in customs, cults, morals, family and sexual
practices and the relationships that these had with climate, orography
and geography. The Sophistic, to which Di Cesare does not dedicate the
necessary attention, knew how to perfectly represent these acquisitions
and their consequences.
D) What impact does this approach, so to speak anti-ontological, have on
the characterization of the Athenian democratic system?
A) In democracy, to return to Di Cesare's theses, there is no universal
and immutable truth from which to start, there is no problem of the
foundation, of certain presuppositions. The only thing that is
absolutely certain is that power belongs to the people, that is, to the
community as a whole, and that the interest of the community is superior
to that of any individual or part of the community. This second
principle, which later became a fundamental acquisition of democracy,
not only ancient, dates back to Solon, called upon to settle the
conflicts between oligarchs and the people: he affirmed that the
interests of the community, considered as a whole, went beyond those of
the individual classes.
Q) Is this vision the basis of democratic equality?
A) Certainly: in a democracy all citizens are equal before the law, what
was called isonomia, all have the duty to contribute to the life, needs
and defense of the community; in democratic Athens, a people's army was
formed for the first time. At Marathon, against the elite of the Persian
army, ten battalions formed by citizens, not by professional soldiers,
fought. In Athens, moreover, as Pericles recalls in his famous encomium,
everyone has the right/duty to participate in the management of public
affairs. Even in the Ceramicus, the cemetery of Athens, signs of
opulence and distinction in the architecture of tombs are discouraged.
D) But democratic equality has a series of limitations, both within and
outside the citizenry.
A) When we speak of democratic equality, we are speaking of an
essentially political equality, not a social or economic one. What it is
is brilliantly explained by Protagoras in the Platonic dialogue of the
same name, with the example of the flautists. It can be simplified in
these terms: "To define someone as a flautist, it is not necessary that
they are a virtuoso of the instrument, they only need to know how to
play it, even if in a basic way. In the same way, a citizen is such if
they are able to participate in the political life of the city". This
"basic" equality does not ignore individual merits, but rather places
them at the center of political life. Furthermore, democratic Athens
took a series of measures that went beyond merely political equality,
for example a policy of controlling the price of grain, imported mainly
from the Black Sea (Euxine Pontus) and forms of compensation to allow
the less well-off to participate in political life, for example in the
Courts and the Assembly. The widespread practice of drawing lots, to
assign positions that did not require specialized skills, implies an
egalitarian vision.
D) However, there is also the question of the servile condition of part
of the population and the certainly subordinate condition of Athenian women.
A) It is a fact: in Athens a significant part of the population is made
up of slaves, foreign residents (metics) who had limited political
rights and women who could not participate in political life.
D) How can a political system founded on slavery be defined as libertarian?
A) Slavery has been a constant presence in history, up to the present
day. Let us think, for example, of the colonial system of modern
democracies, which was in fact a slave regime. Or to the French
Revolution, which maintains the colonies, or to American democracy,
where even the Presidents exploited slaves of African origin. It should
also be remembered that some critics of democracy, such as Plato and the
Old Oligarch, argue that in democracy women and slaves enjoy excessive
freedom, which has no counterpart in other forms of government.
D) De Cesare speaks of "deterritorialization" and the severing of blood
ties, operated by Athenian democracy.
A) Yes, the exact opposite of the formula "Land and Blood", so dear to
nationalisms. With the reform of Cleisthenes, in 508 BC, the population
was divided into 10 tribes, each located in various parts of the
territory, in the city towards the sea and in the hinterland. The
political bond replaces the family bond, of blood, which in turn is
linked to a territorial location.
Q) Can you summarize for us what are for Di Cesare the most properly
anarchic characteristics of Athenian democracy, which you share?
A) Certainly the critical vision of power, the distrust or opposition to
any concentration of power in the hands of one or a few. The positions,
apart from rare exceptions, are always assigned pro-tempore, generally
not renewable. Power is also controlled during its exercise and everyone
is called to account at the end of the mandate for how he has managed
his office. Every citizen is urged to exercise control over the
management of power. The main objective is to encourage citizen
participation and the redistribution of power, as Di Cesare recalls,
always administered "provisionally", because it does not belong to
anyone in particular, but only to the community as a whole.
Q) Di Cesare writes that the democratic polis is not the state. Is this
thesis correct?
A) In Athens there is no permanent political-administrative apparatus,
there are no state officials, but citizens who perform certain functions
pro tempore, almost always for free. The laws themselves are promulgated
in the name of the people (and of the Council of 500), not of the city
of Athens
Q) What are the limits of Athenian democracy that, in your opinion, Di
Cesare did not consider?
A) The political bond, which replaces the one based on consanguinity and
territoriality, creates a union that includes those who are part of it
and excludes others: foreigners, non-citizens, even allies. We see it in
the foreign policy of Athenian democracy, after the second Persian war
and in the Peloponnesian war. The same democratic allies of the Delian
League are considered as servants, doúloi, according to laws of power
defined as universal and eternal. We read it in Thucydides, in the
chronicles of the Peloponnesian War and in the famous dialogue between
the Athenians and the inhabitants of the island of Melos.
Q) What are other differences between Greek democracy and anarchy?
A) Greek democracy is the fruit of a political process that lasted two
centuries. It is a political system that asserts itself in a disruptive
way starting from the reforms of Cleisthenes in 508, a historical
reality that is constituted over time, through a series of
transformations and reforms. Suffice it to consider that there is no
detailed text from the fifth or fourth century BC that describes what
democracy is, apart from the funeral encomium of Pericles. Modern
anarchy was born as a political theory starting from Bakunin and at the
same time as a political movement, but it never becomes the political
theory that permanently regulates the life of an extended community. The
theoretical element is preeminent, while in Greek democracy the
practical one dominates.
http://sicilialibertaria.it
_________________________________________
A - I N F O S N E W S S E R V I C E
By, For, and About Anarchists
Send news reports to A-infos-en mailing list
A-infos-en@ainfos.ca
title "Democracy and anarchy. Power in the polis", addresses the
relationship between the theory and political system of democracy in
Greece in the 5th and 4th centuries BC and anarchism. We discuss this
with Enrico Ferri, a well-known scholar of Stirner and anarchism, but
not a superficial expert on Greek democracy, to which he has dedicated
several essays in various languages, not least a new and recent
translation and edition of Pseudo Xenophon, also known as the Old
Oligarch, published by Rubbettino. ---- D) Both in the democratic and
anarchist fields, there are not many who have addressed the
relationships between Greek democratic theory and anarchist thought.
R) It is a fact that anarchists have paid little attention to the
political, cultural and ideological phenomenon represented by Athenian
democracy. Kropotkin, for example, in the entry "Anarchism" in the 1910
Encyclopedia Britannica, when he talks about the precursors of
anarchism, makes a fleeting reference to Aristippus and Zeno, but does
not mention the political philosophy of democracy and its political
system. In the "Ethics" he cites more Greek authors, but there is no
reference to the democratic system. Things do not change if we consider
theorists such as Bakunin, Proudhon and Stirner, or the political debate
within the anarchist movement, not only European, of the nineteenth or
twentieth century.
D) Donatella Di Cesare argues that the theoretical core of ancient
democracy and that of anarchism, starting from the critique of power,
are the same. Is this comparison correct in your opinion?
R) Aristotle, in a passage from "Politics", which Di Cesare recalls,
argues that democrats "would not want any government, because free men
have no masters, but not being able to do without government, they
choose to govern and be governed in turn". It is interesting to note
that, according to Aristotle, in the democratic perspective every
political government is seen as a form of despotism. At the same time,
it is recognized that the community cannot live without being
administered, consequently the form of government (administration)
closest to non-government is chosen. Self-government is the negation of
every community system founded on a hierarchical power (arché), which
comes from above and is independent of the governed. This democratic
government, but we could define it perfectly libertarian, consists in
"governing and being governed in turn". This assumption is perfectly in
line with the other democratic principle, reported by Herodotus, through
the mouth of Megabyzus, which renders democratic freedom with the
formula né árchein né árchestai: neither command, nor be commanded.
D) In "Democracy and Anarchy" we read that "the question[of power in
democracy]is ontological, even before being political", as well as that
"democracy is always incomplete", that "it lacks certain
presuppositions", that it is always "without foundation".
R) Gorgias of Leontini, with Protagoras the greatest representative of
Sophism, maintains that "Being is not, even if it were real it would not
be comprehensible to man and if it became so it would not be expressible
and communicable", according to what Sextus Empiricus reports. In short,
he says that the question of Being, which is also the question of the
original Foundation, is not real, in any case completely absent and
extraneous to the existence and history of men.
D) What consequences does this approach have in the political sphere?
A) Gorgias also supports what we could call the law of opportunity, that
a certain choice can be more or less valid depending on the
circumstances. It is not, therefore, a matter of taking the cue from
presumed objective and founding truths, but of evaluating and choosing
correctly depending on the circumstances.
D) The so-called epistemological relativism?
A) Epistemological relativism generally means that we have different
representations of the same reality, depending on the perspectives. The
Sophistic also states that the same person, or a certain community, can
have a different representation of reality and a different approach to
it if their living conditions, geographical environment, climate or
political system change. Herodotus, for example, claims that the
Egyptians have habits and lifestyles opposite to those of the Greeks,
but only because they live with a completely original climate and river.
Hippocrates, in his treatise "On Airs, Waters and Places", states that
the Greeks settled in Asia Minor (Anatolia), have different
characteristics from the Asians of the same region, because they have
different political institutions.
D) In "Democracy and Anarchy", it almost seems that at the basis of
Greek democracy there is a modern anti-metaphysical assumption.
A) The Greeks from the 8th to the 6th century had colonized vast
territories of three continents, had circumnavigated Africa, starting
from the Red Sea; for trade they had pushed as far as Iceland and knew
much of Asia Minor. It is enough to read the histories of Herodotus,
Hippocrates or Xenophon's "Anabasis" to realize that they were perfectly
aware of the difference in customs, cults, morals, family and sexual
practices and the relationships that these had with climate, orography
and geography. The Sophistic, to which Di Cesare does not dedicate the
necessary attention, knew how to perfectly represent these acquisitions
and their consequences.
D) What impact does this approach, so to speak anti-ontological, have on
the characterization of the Athenian democratic system?
A) In democracy, to return to Di Cesare's theses, there is no universal
and immutable truth from which to start, there is no problem of the
foundation, of certain presuppositions. The only thing that is
absolutely certain is that power belongs to the people, that is, to the
community as a whole, and that the interest of the community is superior
to that of any individual or part of the community. This second
principle, which later became a fundamental acquisition of democracy,
not only ancient, dates back to Solon, called upon to settle the
conflicts between oligarchs and the people: he affirmed that the
interests of the community, considered as a whole, went beyond those of
the individual classes.
Q) Is this vision the basis of democratic equality?
A) Certainly: in a democracy all citizens are equal before the law, what
was called isonomia, all have the duty to contribute to the life, needs
and defense of the community; in democratic Athens, a people's army was
formed for the first time. At Marathon, against the elite of the Persian
army, ten battalions formed by citizens, not by professional soldiers,
fought. In Athens, moreover, as Pericles recalls in his famous encomium,
everyone has the right/duty to participate in the management of public
affairs. Even in the Ceramicus, the cemetery of Athens, signs of
opulence and distinction in the architecture of tombs are discouraged.
D) But democratic equality has a series of limitations, both within and
outside the citizenry.
A) When we speak of democratic equality, we are speaking of an
essentially political equality, not a social or economic one. What it is
is brilliantly explained by Protagoras in the Platonic dialogue of the
same name, with the example of the flautists. It can be simplified in
these terms: "To define someone as a flautist, it is not necessary that
they are a virtuoso of the instrument, they only need to know how to
play it, even if in a basic way. In the same way, a citizen is such if
they are able to participate in the political life of the city". This
"basic" equality does not ignore individual merits, but rather places
them at the center of political life. Furthermore, democratic Athens
took a series of measures that went beyond merely political equality,
for example a policy of controlling the price of grain, imported mainly
from the Black Sea (Euxine Pontus) and forms of compensation to allow
the less well-off to participate in political life, for example in the
Courts and the Assembly. The widespread practice of drawing lots, to
assign positions that did not require specialized skills, implies an
egalitarian vision.
D) However, there is also the question of the servile condition of part
of the population and the certainly subordinate condition of Athenian women.
A) It is a fact: in Athens a significant part of the population is made
up of slaves, foreign residents (metics) who had limited political
rights and women who could not participate in political life.
D) How can a political system founded on slavery be defined as libertarian?
A) Slavery has been a constant presence in history, up to the present
day. Let us think, for example, of the colonial system of modern
democracies, which was in fact a slave regime. Or to the French
Revolution, which maintains the colonies, or to American democracy,
where even the Presidents exploited slaves of African origin. It should
also be remembered that some critics of democracy, such as Plato and the
Old Oligarch, argue that in democracy women and slaves enjoy excessive
freedom, which has no counterpart in other forms of government.
D) De Cesare speaks of "deterritorialization" and the severing of blood
ties, operated by Athenian democracy.
A) Yes, the exact opposite of the formula "Land and Blood", so dear to
nationalisms. With the reform of Cleisthenes, in 508 BC, the population
was divided into 10 tribes, each located in various parts of the
territory, in the city towards the sea and in the hinterland. The
political bond replaces the family bond, of blood, which in turn is
linked to a territorial location.
Q) Can you summarize for us what are for Di Cesare the most properly
anarchic characteristics of Athenian democracy, which you share?
A) Certainly the critical vision of power, the distrust or opposition to
any concentration of power in the hands of one or a few. The positions,
apart from rare exceptions, are always assigned pro-tempore, generally
not renewable. Power is also controlled during its exercise and everyone
is called to account at the end of the mandate for how he has managed
his office. Every citizen is urged to exercise control over the
management of power. The main objective is to encourage citizen
participation and the redistribution of power, as Di Cesare recalls,
always administered "provisionally", because it does not belong to
anyone in particular, but only to the community as a whole.
Q) Di Cesare writes that the democratic polis is not the state. Is this
thesis correct?
A) In Athens there is no permanent political-administrative apparatus,
there are no state officials, but citizens who perform certain functions
pro tempore, almost always for free. The laws themselves are promulgated
in the name of the people (and of the Council of 500), not of the city
of Athens
Q) What are the limits of Athenian democracy that, in your opinion, Di
Cesare did not consider?
A) The political bond, which replaces the one based on consanguinity and
territoriality, creates a union that includes those who are part of it
and excludes others: foreigners, non-citizens, even allies. We see it in
the foreign policy of Athenian democracy, after the second Persian war
and in the Peloponnesian war. The same democratic allies of the Delian
League are considered as servants, doúloi, according to laws of power
defined as universal and eternal. We read it in Thucydides, in the
chronicles of the Peloponnesian War and in the famous dialogue between
the Athenians and the inhabitants of the island of Melos.
Q) What are other differences between Greek democracy and anarchy?
A) Greek democracy is the fruit of a political process that lasted two
centuries. It is a political system that asserts itself in a disruptive
way starting from the reforms of Cleisthenes in 508, a historical
reality that is constituted over time, through a series of
transformations and reforms. Suffice it to consider that there is no
detailed text from the fifth or fourth century BC that describes what
democracy is, apart from the funeral encomium of Pericles. Modern
anarchy was born as a political theory starting from Bakunin and at the
same time as a political movement, but it never becomes the political
theory that permanently regulates the life of an extended community. The
theoretical element is preeminent, while in Greek democracy the
practical one dominates.
http://sicilialibertaria.it
_________________________________________
A - I N F O S N E W S S E R V I C E
By, For, and About Anarchists
Send news reports to A-infos-en mailing list
A-infos-en@ainfos.ca
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