#Anarchism from all over the #world - TUESDAY 8 SEPTEMBER 2020

 

Today's Topics:

   

1.  PALANG HITAM INDONESIA: Indonesia: Street Poster in
      Gorontalo for the International Week of Solidarity 

      with Anarchist Prisoners (a-infos-en@ainfos.ca)
  

2.  SOLIDARIDAD OBRERAL: NOTICE 74/2020 

     METROMADRID - NOTICE On HEALTH PROTECTION: A                       FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT (ca) [machine translation]
      (a-infos-en@ainfos.ca)
   

3.  Russia, avtonom: Revolution in Belarus 2020 [machine
      translation] (a-infos-en@ainfos.ca)
   

4.  A-Radio interview with anarchist comrade about the rebellion
      in Belarus [radio podcast and full transcript] 

      (a-infos-en@ainfos.ca)


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Message: 1



This entry was posted in Solidaritas and tagged anarkis, Gorontalo, International Solidarity, Poster. Bookmark the permalink. Both comments
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«North Sulawesi, Indonesia: Street Poster in Manado for the International Week of Solidarity with Anarchist Prisoners

https://palanghitamanarkis.noblogs.org/post/2020/08/30/indonesia-street-poster-in-gorontalo-for-the-international-week-of-solidarity-with-anarchist-prisoners/

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Message: 2


CONCENTRATION SEPT 4 FRIDAY ---- PLAZA DE LOC CUBOS (C / PRINCESA 5) FROM 09:00 TO 10:00 ---- Solidaridad Obrera has always defended,
defends and will defend the rights of workers around the world, within those rights, health occupies a preferential place. Since the health
of workers is a fundamental right, recognized and enforceable in any work setting, the right to protect the health of workers is not so much
, although it is included in labor laws, agreements and in many more legal and legal writings , It is usually left on paper , something that
has minimum requirements and that companies complying with those "minimums required by law" are considered very satisfied, beyond the fact
that the reality is very different and the protection remains a mere formality easy to bypass.

At Metro de Madrid, we have suffered the direct consequences of this law that half " protects " us . With asbestos we have lost fellow
victims of poisoning who, according to those responsible for protecting our health, fulfilled the minimum legal requirements established by
law, although now it will be a court that will decide whether this was true.

The pandemic we are experiencing is another clear example of what the right to protection of the health of workers is, and how little it
matters to those who make the laws. We have seen how criteria change from one day to the next. Protection measures that are not valid today,
tomorrow are essential and mandatory, and vice versa. Image is more important than the health of workers ... remember that before masks were
mandatory in Metro, from positions of responsibility they fought the use of these for reasons of "image", if any worker dared to protect
their health with a mask ... Later they were compulsory, but the disciplinary threats for that "improper" use of images were revealed.

Later the use of the mask was imposed, with the so-called FFP2 being the ones that offered greater protection and duration. The
recommendations for use of the different types of mask were modified according to the vision of the risk that the company had, practically
never coinciding with the union vision. It was always highly recommended to use the FFP2 mask when treating someone without the necessary
distance to avoid possible infections, who could be infected or when the worker considered that they were at risk of being infected. Well,
from the Directorate, through their middle managers, they have persecuted and harassed colleagues who defended the use of more protective
masks, even threatening them for the use of the FFP2 that existed as equipment at the stations. Well, some of our colleagues began a fight
for maximum protection of the health of the entire group, achieving that from August 20, the use of the FFP2 mask is mandatory for all
station workers.

  Solidaridad Obrera has denounced this "sidestep" to a fundamental right. The RIGHT TO PROTECT HEALTH IN THE JOBS, and this coming Friday,
day 4, at 9:00 a.m. the trial is held, that is why we have called a concentration to support the comrade who has dared to denounce and claim
this Right as fundamental and that it is the company that must provide workers with the best health protection measures. Now is the time to
tuck our partner in before the courts.

SOLIDARITY WITH THOSE WHO FIGHT

Yesterday we have delivered school supplies, notebooks, pages, rulers, erasers, pens, pencils, pencil sharpeners, folders and compasses, the
material is mainly for primary schools, and we made another delivery of food to replace the most necessary oil, tuna and cans of precooked
for the homeless.

It is necessary to continue supporting the solidarity networks and the neighborhood fabric, collaborating with this campaign must also serve
as a link to know a reality that they keep silenced, and that needs social alternatives that we must build from the working class, to train
and be able to arm to the most underprivileged comrades to regain their life and independence, which is ultimately the intention to continue
day by day, to get ahead, and not fall into the well that is added by a dehumanized and criminal system such as the capitalist.

We continue to call all Metro workers, especially our affiliation, to make donations for FOODS FOR PARADXS either by hand at the Union
Section or by transfer to the account ES31 2038 1807 1060 0061 6942

Madrid, September 1, 2020

By Solidaridad Obrera

THE UNION BOARD

https://www.solidaridadobrera.org/confederal/2020/09/01/aviso-74-2020-metromadrid-aviso-la-proteccion-de-la-salud-un-derecho-fundamental/

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Message: 3



In August 2020, a popular uprising began in Belarus. The reason was the next re-election to the post of President Alexander Lukashenko, who
has been in power for 26 years. The uprising takes place in the form of mass rallies of disgruntled Belarusians, some of which were
accompanied by clashes with riot police. Among the civilians, at least six dead ( Alexander Taraikovsky, Alexander Vikhor, Gennady Shutov,
Konstantin Shishmakov, Nikita Krivtsov, the name of the sixth victim is being specified ). The police clearly exceeded their powers: they
beat people at rallies, in paddy wagons, in police stations, used rubber bullets, noise grenades and other special equipment. More than 150
people ended up in hospitals, many with severe injuries. In the prison on Akrestsin Street, torture of detainees was widely practiced.

Why is this a revolution
Massive incessant demonstrations of Belarusian citizens have been going on for three weeks. Performances are peaceful. "Is this a
revolution?" - Ask an Internet theorist who has read a lot of books. "They walk, hold meetings, they don't attack police stations."

Revolutions are different, their processes, scale and results depend on a specific country and a given time. Of course, at this stage (end
of August 2020) this revolution is incomplete, however, the revolutionary element at this stage is that protests against Lukashenka's
government are popular and widespread. These performances take place in all large settlements of Belarus and they cover different segments
of the population.

This is definitely positive. But there are moments that are alarming. First of all, there are no grassroots political structures capable of
forming political will. We emphasize: there are grassroots social initiatives and they are quite numerous, namely, there are no political
structures of the same kind yet . This means that groups alien to the people can take advantage of popular indignation in their interests.
It's not so bad if these are groups of the ruling class that broke away from Lukashenka and entered into confrontation with him. It could be
worse for the people of Belarus if external forces take advantage of this.

Why the Belarusian revolution needs to be supported and how to do it
The events in Belarus in August 2020 do not fit into the schemes of the dogmatic left. "This is a petty-bourgeois protest," some of them
say. "And where is the confrontation between the bourgeoisie and the proletariat"?

Yes, this is a protest in which representatives of different social groups participate. As for the "bourgeoisie and the proletariat", it
seems that for the first time in many years we are witnessing a mass strike movement in the post-Soviet space. There is, however, one nuance
in this movement: it does not put forward demands on the bourgeois class. The main demand of all strikers: "Lukashenka - leave!", Freedom
for political prisoners, new elections... Also, in some labor collectives, demands were made to stop blocking the Internet and prevent
privatization. In all this there is no confrontation between the "bourgeoisie and the proletariat", but there is a confrontation between the
proletariat and the bureaucratic class. Why? Because the actual owner and manager of large industrial enterprises in Belarus is the
bureaucratic class and the clan of hangers-on around Lukashenka.

The Belarusian revolution must be supported because it is a pure popular protest of all strata of society against a regime that has stained
itself with crimes, a protest against Lukashenka, who usurped power. It is also obvious that the Lukashenka regime, which has reduced the
country to the level of a supplier of agricultural products to Russia, is unable to develop it further.

How can you support the Belarusian revolution? To begin with, you just have to be aware of this phenomenon. This is happening very close to
us, with Russia. We are witnessing a rise in the protest self-organization of people, worthy of attention and study (see the part
"Self-organization of the Belarusian people").

Further, you can support in word and deed. Starting from the dissemination of information and ending with public actions in support of the
Belarusian protest. Russian state media in 2014 took an openly anti-Ukrainian and anti-Maidan stance. They speak more neutrally about modern
events in Belarus, but, of course, they keep silent about most of the events. It is necessary to say that they are silent. Telegram
currently has dozens of Belarusian channels with first-hand news content in a wide variety of areas. Only one " Black Book of
Belarus"Publishes up to ten messages a day about the employees of" law enforcement "agencies involved in repression, illegal detention and
beatings of citizens. Photos, phone numbers, home addresses of such employees are published, and the channel has 64 thousand subscribers.

Many residents of Russia have friends, acquaintances, relatives in Belarus. You can just contact them and ask what help is needed.

Of course, it would be a good option for a person with a revolutionary position who has contacts with comrades in Belarus to come to
Belarus, but the question is that it is not easy to cross the border between Russia and Belarus now. You do not need to come to "beat the
local OMON". Now is a unique time in Belarus to create long-term political groups. Yes, this is actually more dangerous than hitting the
riot police, but more useful. There is such a chance that the protest will drag on for several years and turn into a movement, since
Lukashenka will not leave himself. But when he does leave (and this is inevitable), stable political groups will be very useful.

Self-organization of the Belarusian people
Today in Belarus we observe a very high level of development of grassroots initiatives in connection with the protests. Yes, this is not
political self-organization, but from a social point of view, the spontaneous structures of self-organization and mutual assistance of
Belarusians are now the core of all protest activity , without which it would simply be impossible.

These are the initiatives: "Medical assistance on the barricades", "Free ultrasound of the abdominal cavity to victims of violence by
security forces"; "Free MRI for all victims of the August 9-13 repression, as well as examination of beatings with the issuance of an
opinion"; "First aid to a patient with mild injuries"; "Taping hematomas, help with bruises (free)"; "Free consultation (or a group) for all
detainees and their families"; various types of legal assistance; "General database of detainees"; "Fund to help everyone who lost their
jobs due to participation in protests against the election results in Belarus"; "Assistance to employees of power structures who have lost
their jobs due to refusal to carry out criminal orders"; "Free English language training for protesters / ex-OMON officers who were fired
for their political stance"; "Free retraining of dismissed workers and employees of state institutions in IT specialists"; "Teaching the
programming of dismissed strikers"; "Collecting things for schoolchildren from families in which their parents went on strike"; "Belarus of
the Future Foundation"; "List of service stations in different cities, ready to help victims of car actions"; "Accommodation for
nonresidents who are looking for loved ones"; "Movement, a chat in which taxi drivers help to pick up the released"; "Assistance to women
victims of violence during the protests from the center" Her Rights ""; "Baby Club, if your husband / brother / son is in trouble, they will
sit for a few hours with your child for free"; "Free repair or replacement of glasses for victims of rallies" and so on. in which the
parents went on strike "; "Belarus of the Future Foundation"; "List of service stations in different cities, ready to help victims of car
actions"; "Accommodation for nonresidents who are looking for loved ones"; "Movement, a chat in which taxi drivers help to pick up the
released"; "Assistance to women victims of violence during the protests from the center" Her Rights ""; "Baby Club, if your husband /
brother / son is in trouble, they will sit for a few hours with your child for free"; "Free repair or replacement of glasses for victims of
rallies" and so on. in which the parents went on strike "; "Belarus of the Future Foundation"; "List of service stations in different
cities, ready to help victims of car actions"; "Accommodation for nonresidents who are looking for loved ones"; "Movement, a chat in which
taxi drivers help to pick up the released"; "Help to women who suffered from violence during the protests from the center" Her Rights "";
"Baby Club, if your husband / brother / son is in trouble, they will sit for a few hours with your child for free"; "Free repair or
replacement of glasses for victims of rallies" and so on. victims of violence during the protests from the center "Her Rights" "; "Baby
Club, if your husband / brother / son is in trouble, they will sit for a few hours with your child for free"; "Free repair or replacement of
glasses for victims of rallies" and so on. victims of violence during the protests from the center "Her Rights" "; "Baby Club, if your
husband / brother / son is in trouble, they will sit for a few hours with your child for free"; "Free repair or replacement of glasses for
victims of rallies" and so on.

A complete list of initiatives can be found here and here . Moreover, it is important that such initiatives operate today not only in the
capital, in Minsk, but even in small towns of Belarus. The level of mutual assistance and mutual assistance at the grassroots level in
Belarus is high today. It is clear that he is supported by an emotional enthusiasm that cannot last long. Nevertheless, I would like to
believe that some of the initiatives will later develop into long-term projects.

Opposition Coordination Council and Strike Committee
In general, the ongoing protest has political structures - the Coordination Council of the opposition and the Strike Committee. Some of the
members of the Constitutional Court (including those from the Presidium) are already in prison, and a criminal case has been opened against
the Constitutional Court. It is still difficult to say how politically viable these two structures are. Will they be able to make the right
decisions at the right time. One thing is clear about the COP: if the situation of confrontation increases sharply, then the COP will be
helpless. It is a body capable of operating in relatively peaceful conditions. If the mass rallies continue, it will be afloat for a long
time, peaceful rallies are the native element of the "democratic opposition."

Also, regarding the opposition Constitutional Court, it is not very clear how much it influences events. That he does not control them is
obvious. As for the degree of impact, it is very difficult to say now. At one time, the same body, formed in Moscow in 2012 within the
framework of the same events, turned out to be unviable. The then Constitutional Court of the Russian opposition adopted the charter for
several weeks, and its sessions were eventually terminated due to their uselessness and the decline in protest activity.

Differences between Belarus August 2020 and the Ukrainian Maidan 2014
At this stage, an important difference between modern Belarus and Ukraine in 2014 is that there is no split in Belarus at the bottom of
society. Residents of different parts of Ukraine - west and east of Ukraine - viewed the events of the Maidan in Kiev differently. This,
unfortunately, became one of the reasons for the aggressive intervention of the Russian Federation. In Belarus, the anti-Lukashenka
sentiment is relatively homogeneous in different parts of the country.

The specificity of modern Belarus is also in the fact that there are no radical socialist groups in it except anarchists. If in Ukraine, for
example, there were several different anarchist and Marxist groups, then in Belarus the situation is unique. (However, recent Marxists in
Belarus are trying to organize on the basis of the project " zabastovka.bay "; of anarchist projects include https: t.me//pramenby ,
https://t.me/belarus_abc , https://t.me / vdlibrary , http://t.me/MikolaDziadok , https://t.me/revbelorg ).

However, the radical socialists of Belarus approached 2020 in a state of disorganization. Due to the inability to clearly and noticeably
offer the people their alternative, some of them are forced to openly express support for the opposition Constitutional Court. Personally, I
do not condemn such a position and I understand that in these conditions it is forced . At the same time, it is obvious that the values and
ideas ("fair presidential elections", the nomination of Tikhanovskaya for the presidency, etc.) themselves are quite far from the ideas of
anarchism and socialism in general.

The difference between modern Belarus and Ukraine in 2014 is also the extremely low influence of radical nationalist groups. Lukashenko's
regime squeezed radical nationalists out of public politics back in the early 2000s. Radical nationalists in Belarus, of course, try to
voice their slogans, but their slogans are absolutely inaudible against the general background.

Lukashenka's inadequacy of behavior
A.G. Lukashenko, who, according to the opposition, falsified the elections and "drew" himself 80% of the votes, is behaving rather clumsy
and inadequate. The main motive for his speeches is that the protests were inspired from abroad. He passes off the planned NATO exercises as
"pulling the armed forces to the border with Belarus", appears in public in a bulletproof vest and with a machine gun, claims that "Poland
wants to seize the Grodno region and dismember Belarus", etc. All of these are rather ridiculous demagogic methods that have one goal: in no
case to admit that the protests that have begun are an internal problem of the country, and he himself, Lukashenko, is the direct cause of
these protests.

In general, the official authorities of Belarus demonstrate extreme nervousness of behavior and the dumbest type of state thinking. For
example: a police major deprives the driver of his driver's license for one year only for the fact that he, passing by, beeped in support of
the protesters. A woman is imprisoned for 10 days only because she came to work in a dress similar to the colors of the opposition
Belarusian flag. Officials send a letter to the striking plant on behalf of the workers of another plant with a demand to "end the strike"
(naturally, the workers of the second plant are not aware that officials are writing letters on their behalf). The police officer on duty
calls the father of a minor who was detained at the rally, and when he comes to pick up his son, OMON beats the father along with his son
right at the police station. The woman asks not to detain the protesters from the balcony and is shot in the stomach with a rubber bullet,
etc. Modern events in Belarus are replete with similar incidents.

It follows from this that the power has become stale and it lacks flexibility and originality of thinking. Such power can quickly fall. For
a quarter of a century of his rule, Lukashenka has driven himself into such a situation that none of the bordering countries wants to
explicitly help him. Even Russia (which still has a Union State with Belarus), represented by the Kremlin, is trying to keep its distance
from Lukashenka.

The complexity of the situation and the main players
The complexity and tragedy of the current situation in Belarus lies in the fact that non-national groups can take advantage of the people's
anger . What are the real, not ghostly, players on the political map of Belarus?

First, of course, it is Lukashenka himself and the security structures still subordinate to him.

Secondly, behind the scenes, it is the Russian Federation represented by the Kremlin. Unlike the events in Ukraine in 2013-2014, the Kremlin
in Belarus behaves extremely restrained. Does not take explicit and open steps. But this is the most potential "player" in this situation.

Finally, thirdly, an important player is the independent Belarusian telegram channels with an audience of more than two million people (
Nexta , for example), which work quite well. This is the specificity of the modern "Internet world", when "self-made" Internet media, under
certain conditions, turn into spokesmen for public opinion. At this stage, the Nexta Telegram channel has partially turned into a
coordinator of the largest protest actions .

As for the Constitutional Court of the opposition and the Strike Committee, the labor movement is just being formed, and it will take more
than one year to clearly express political will, to become a full-fledged player in the political field of Belarus. The Constitutional Court
of the opposition has not yet been officially recognized by any state as a representative of the Belarusian people, and how strong its
positions are so far (end of August 2020) is not clear.

Finally, about the numerous grassroots initiatives mentioned above, it must be said that they are little connected in a single network and
do not perceive themselves as possible political structures.

Putin's position
The Kremlin, represented by Putin's administration, acts in the case of Belarus, I would say, in a gem. Why? Unlike Ukraine in 2014-2015,
there are no obvious anti-Russian sentiments here in Belarus. But any aggressive move on the part of Putin can create them. Putin doesn't
need this.

Moscow has more trump cards in terms of influence on Belarus than anyone else. Moscow does not want to lose them - these are the trump
cards. Aggressive actions such as the introduction of Russian troops into Belarus can worsen the very situation in Russia, give rise to a
new round of anti-Putin sentiments, which is also completely unnecessary for the Kremlin.

For Putin, the situation in Belarus is a unique chance to improve his international image, which has clearly turned black after the
annexation of Crimea. Play the role of a peacemaker, a "kind and smart elder brother", etc.

After the annexation of the Crimea, the full integration of Belarus into the Russian Federation is not profitable. It is much easier to
appoint your own candidate as president. After about 2015, Lukashenko stopped enjoying Putin's unconditional support, which he had
previously. Therefore, the Kremlin is not at all opposed to replacing Lukashenko with a candidate loyal to Moscow. True, at the end of
August, Putin and Lukashenko held several telephone conversations, from which one gets the impression that Lukashenko accepted Putin's terms
in exchange for the necessary assistance. In particular, Putin "restructured" (actually forgave) Belarus's debt in the amount of 1 billion
dollars and created in Russia a "personnel reserve" of security officials, which in case of aggravation of the situation will quickly find
itself in Belarus.

In general, the foreign policy forces have now taken a wait-and-see attitude. Everyone is waiting for what will happen in Belarus next.

What to do if the same starts in Russia
There are prerequisites for such events in the future in Russia. Some time ago an article appeared on this topic . One can agree with the
main part of the theses of this article, but not with all. Let's consider some theses.

The author writes that "there is no centralized leadership" and presents this as a positive factor. The mistake here is that the absence of
any centralization in general and the complete reliance on "spontaneous protest of the masses" never lead to any tangible political results.
It is clear that the idea must be formulated further than just advocating "fair elections", and this requires organization. Supporters of
complete decentralization say: leaders and organization are impossible in such conditions, because leaders are immediately imprisoned (like
Tikhanovsky), and organizations are smashed. However, the leaders and organizations in question were originally formed for public policy,
but we are talking about a different type of organization.

If you imagine in modern Belarus a stable revolutionary organization with branches throughout Belarus, then it has a real chance of seizing
power with little blood, with the support of the people. But no one has such an organization in Belarus. Why? Largely because there is no
fundamental renewed revolutionary idea in the public consciousness. In addition, Lukashenka nipped in the bud any attempts to create such
organizations and, consequently, to formulate such ideas.

The author of the article "What to do when it will be in Russia" writes quite correctly that supporters of non-state socialism should
participate in such events no matter what. We must participate, despite the absence of radical slogans from the masses and demands in any
left direction. It is obvious that supporters of non-state socialism will not be able to achieve far-reaching program goals in such events.
Nevertheless, participation in such events is extremely necessary in order to gain experience, gain authority, formulate and propose your
agenda no matter what.

Some conclusions
What positive and negative aspects do we see in modern events in Belarus?

Positive points:

in Belarus, as already mentioned, there is no split in the lower strata of society;

we are witnessing a massive protest of the people, which until then was mistakenly considered submissive and resigned to the dictatorship;

high level of consciousness of protesters in Belarus. We don't see a single broken shop. The protesters understand that the looted store is
a unique reason for Lukashenka to shoot not rubber bullets, but lead bullets at the protesters.

Negative points:

at this stage, there is not a single real and influential political player in Belarusian politics, expressing the will of the people or its
significant part;

non-state socialists of Belarus fail to promote their agenda. Therefore, when working with the masses, they are forced to focus on momentary
analytics or technical details ("what to do when the Internet is turned off", "how to behave during actions during arrest", etc.).

But in general, it is too early to draw final conclusions. It is likely that the events are not over yet.

August 31, 2020,
Dmitry Sergeev

https://avtonom.org/freenews/revolyuciya-v-belarusi-2020-goda


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Message: 4



Anarchistisches Radio Berlin (A-Radio Berlin) conducted an interview about Belarus with a comrade from there (on August 31, 2020). Here is
the audio link (56¼ mins): https://www.aradio-berlin.org/belarus-rebellion-against-dictatorship/ or you can play from here (in English after
a short intro to the internet radio station in German) ... ---- Transcript: ---- (A) is A-Radio Berlin and (B) is the anarchist comrade from
Belarus: ---- A1: As the Anarchist Radio Berlin we are happy to present the following interview with someone from Belarus about the current
situation in the country. This interview took place on the 31st of August, 2020. All and any links mentioned are listed on the blog entry of
this audio on our website, aradio-berlin.org.

We're having a talk with someone from Belarus to get some insights into what is going on in the struggle there in the country. First, would
you like to introduce you in some way that is comfortable for you, maybe there are any associations you want to mention, or maybe you want
to mention where you're located or what your political leanings are.

B1: You can call me Mannia, and I am an anarchist, I live in Minsk, and probably I wouldn't like to identify publicly with any of the
initiatives that exist there, but I think that my affiliation would more or less tell you what my political ideas are.

A2: For people who are not familiar at all with the general situation in Belarus, could you, to start out, give a short introduction on what
has been the status quo before August, and what's been happening since, or, in the last couple of weeks?

B2: Right, so, we have the presidential democracy, so to say, so there was no real elementary structure, so it means that the president is
head of the country and he rules the state and his decrees can overrule the laws that are just signed by the members of the parliament, and
in this parliament there are no opposition members at all. So it means that basically he has all the powers, including he is controlling the
judiciary, the police of course, and all branches of the authority. The country is very centralised, so we don't have any, so cities or
municipalities do not have their own rights or something like this. Basically everything has been, what they have to do has been told from
the centre, from minsk. And Lukashenko is the president. He came to power in 1994, just closely after the collapse of the Soviet Union, and
he created this strong, authority over the years, so he first changed the constitution which allowed him to be, to run for the president
unlimited number of times, so now it's his sixth term in power, and he has been in power for 26 years. And, eh, basically, this time the
election took place in August this year, and this time he again allegedly won the elections, so he got more than 80% of the vote, I think
that this is even, it looks like one of the biggest rates of him, because previously he could have had 78 or something like that. And most
of the elections, apart from the first one, where he was actually elected democratically, and most people actually supported him, all the
further elections were not recognised by the international community as legitimate. So the only countries that recognised it were Russia and
some other Eastern authoritarian regimes. So basically this year it happened the same, nobody was thinking that he would be giving away his
power, but unlike all the last times, the population started to revolt against it.

A3: Can you describe a bit more in detail the character of the revolt? Because for example in Germany we see the mass media talking about
peaceful protests of tens of thousands of people, but yeah, maybe we can go into the character of the revolt. What are all the different
types of things that happened?

B3: Right, I think to start with we should remember a little bit before the elections, because this electoral campaign was very much
different from all the previous ones, because for the first time, also by coincidence I think, most of the systemic opposition, like the
opposition that has been there for years and actually is quite marginalised, and it really doesn't, it cannot canvas so much people, it
cannot attract followers, so it wouldn't even, I think if they participated in the elections this year the elections might have been going
on like always, but unlike all the other times, most of these people were arrested even before they could get registered, so they were
arrested for minor crimes, and they were put in jail and most of them are still in jail, but suddenly there were about eleven candidates
that wanted to run for candidacy, including different bankers, business men, people who are managing the IT sector within the country, and
there was also one person from the opposition, but he would not be the party member but rather a person who would have his own blog or a
youtube vlog, so he was actually quite popular and maybe quite active on social networks. So, in the end there were three main candidates
that got many signatures, this was that blogger, then there was a very rich banker, and another one was a former manager of the IT sector.

So, basically these people were a little bit from different strata of society, but all of them were quite neoliberal, mostly pro-European,
but not necessarily totally anti-Russian. Like usually the opposition in our country is very anti-Russian. And these people were like, they
were not able to actually say anything, what they wanted, because they were all, one by one, put in jail, on different crimes. The two
people were put in jail, and the other one was not registered. And so it created, because these people were not from the opposition, so they
got quite a lot of followers, because there were people who would support them from the IT sector, there were a lot of petit bourgeois, many
people from the simple population would also support, because they saw that suddenly there is a face that is not necessarily conservative,
like many opposition leaders from before, and that these people looked like they could change something, and many of these people used to
be, they used to occupy some diplomatic positions before, so they looked like they could run the country. And basically what happened is
that Lukashenko started his usual tactics, he started just repressing everybody. And before he used to do it after the elections and now he
just started doing it two months before. And it created, unlike all other times, it created a lot of protest, so people started silently
basically protesting, so there were no mass actions before the actions. People started protesting the detentions, protesting the arrests of
their candidates, people started queuing for example, this protest is very legalistic, so people were trying to fight the authorities with a
lot of complaints, with a lot of petitions, with a lot of applications, and a lot of citizens groups were rallying and so on, and of course
they were all getting rejected. It looked like people, for the first time, they started understanding that most of the elections are
falsified, so a lot of new intitiaveis were created for people who would like to observe the elections,m who would like to count the votes,
and of course all of them were not registered, like the other times, but for so many people it looked like it was the first time that they
opened their eyes and saw that they lived in a country that doesn't give a fuck about even their right to vote.

And what happened next is that because all the three candidates were either arrested or not registered, a wife of one of them decided to
register herself instead of her husband, and two other women, a wife of another one and a third woman was a member of the, she was an agent
of this third candidate, so she was in his team. And basically they formed this kind of, three-women picture, so to say. So they united
their teams and they said, ok, we are not running for anything, but just for new, fair elections. So, eh, this woman who got registration as
a candidate, she said, I'm not going to be the president if you vote for me, but you should vote for me if you want, for me to be elected, I
will later hold other elections, and we will set all the political prisoners free, and afterwards we can start a new political process. And
in her programme she only had five simple points, so she didn't promise anything, she didn't say I'm gonna change your life and so on, she
just said, first, new elections, second, set free all the prisoners, third, something something something. And I think this was what
actually attracted people, because for the first time it was not the professional politician, or not somebody who wanted to tell them how
cool their life is gonna be if they elect her. Also this women face who is very simple, who just said ok, I'm here only because of my
husband, and also because the three teams of the most popular candidates united, so it attracted a lot of people, and they actually started
campaigning, and they went all around the country, and people all around the country supported them. But of course the election was
falsified and she only got 10% of the vote. And because she got this campaign so popular, people saw that there was a lot, that it's not
10%, and people saw with their own eyes that the elections were falsified, the observers were not allowed to see the results and so on. So
for the first time many people saw that their votes were stolen, and so I think this is why the protests started. And usually the protest
goes on, after every election in Belarus the protest goes on one evening, everyone gets detained, and then the next day maybe one hundred
people come out to the street, and then it's over. And I also thought it's gonna be the same this time but it looks like not anymore. And
what happens now is that first day the police decided to choose very weird tactics, maybe for the listeners from Europe I will have to
describe the difference in police tactics which is used in Belarus and what I saw in Europe. So for example when there is a riot or let's
say a riot, or maybe not a riot but just a mass protest, what the police in Europe does is disperse the crowd. So they're not openly wanting
to beat up anyone or detain anyone. They just want the crowd to be dispersed, to leave, to get away from the square and then just go home.
What happens in Belarus is that they're not dispersing the crowd, they want to detain as many people as possible, and beat them up on the
way. And this usually works very well in Belarus. Because nobody wants to get beaten up or detained, so everyone just runs away. Suddenly,
on the 9th of August, they decided to use another tactic, they decided to use the tactics of Europe, so they brought all the water canons,
all the smoke grenades, all the shock grenades, and so on. And even though the people did not attack them, they started attacking the crowd,
and they got many people wounded, they got many people wounded or injured with rubber bullets where the grenades, and so on. And then, they
also detained, I think, on the first day they detained a lot of people, manybe four thousand in the whole country. And all these people were
severely beaten up by the cops, later when they were in jail. And the next day after people saw that the reaction of the police was not
something that they were expecting, like they were actually from the very beginning a peaceful protest, and nobody wanted to attack the
cops. In the country there is a very widespread slogan, they are shouting ‘the police is with the people,' which I hate, but a lot of people
shouted it in the first days. Luckily they are not shouting it anymore, because they saw that, no, the police is not on their side, they are
not going to be on their side ever, they are on the side of this one person who is paying them money. And also they're going to beat up many
many people. And I think more than one thousand people got very much beaten up, with bruises all over the body, and basically when they came
out of prison people were shocked from all the photos, all the pictures, and so on. And I think it was for the first time, that simple
people, that were not, never engaged in politics, they saw that, what the fuck is happening in this country. And many people who would be,
maybe taking no sides, maybe sitting at home, and saying ok, I don't give a fuck, this is not something I should be caring about, when they
saw these atrocities, they decided that, no, we're not going to sit anymore, this is horrible, and this person should not be there. So now,
the demands of the protestors are only two; to set free all the political prisoners, and there are a lot more people who are becoming
prisoners, because cops are starting criminal cases against everyone who is detained, for example, or who is wounded, so they are accusing
everyone who is detained of mass riots, or organising mass riots, or participating, or attacking the cops, or so on. So I think now there
are more than two hundred people who have criminal cases started against them, and there are more and more every day, because all over the
country the protests are going on, and it's very different in different cities, so in some cities it's quite peaceful, in other cities
people are more active I would say, so if cops are attacking they are attacking back. So basically what is new about this protest in that
they are decentralised. I mean, usually the protest is happening only in Minsk, and this time it's happening all over the place, even in
smaller villages. And this is very much encouraged, by the former, by the candidates, and by these organised teams, but also by the people
themselves, so now people started marching from the sleeping, residential areas themselves, rather than just going one by one. So they are
getting into groups, they are hanging out in the places where they live, and they then go together, and this happens in every city, so it
doesn't let the authorities put all the police in every city and cut down the protests. So the police have to be everywhere to control
everything, and they can't, because there are not many police. So they started using also the army, and terrorist units, and so on.

A4: Do you think that the Corona crisis, and the last months of economic stress also had some, were some kind of driving force behind this,
or is it something that you really don't see having much effect?

B4: Everybody is talking about this as one of the factors, but I am not an analyst so much, but I can say that it actually played a role,
because unlike in Europe, Lukashenko decided not to impose any limitations, we didn't have any lockdown, or even y quarantine, anywhere, so
there were no general call for wearing masks, there were no general call for stopping working, or trying to work from home for example, so
because Lukashenko decided to save the economy instead of saving people. Myself for example, I didn't like the measures that were introduced
in Moscow, where people couldn't leave home without a special pass, which allowed them to control everybody who lived somewhere and so on,
so I wouldn't like to be in the situation where I have to give away my address to cops. So I'm actually fine with how Lukashenko handled the
Coronavirus, but of course he handled it, like the state in general didn't work well, so they didn't give the doctors and the medical staff
all the equipment, so most of the equipment was bought by the people. There is two different sides of the coin; first, people were
dissatisfied with how he reacted, so people wanted him to take more stricter measures, which he didn't, and he was actually saying that
Coronavirus is not something we should care about so much, it's this psycho shit so we don't have to care. So people said, ok, you don't
care about our lives, what the fuck? And another thing is that people saw that there is a lot of support necessary for the medics, and the
state didn't provide them with anything. So what started happening is that people started forming initiatives and groups of producing
equipment, of buying equipment, or transporting equipment and so on. So already then there was a big wave of self-organisation happening. So
I think this was something that started the process of self-organising, and also of dissatisfaction with the politics. ANd also we should
understand that although he wanted to save the economy, the economy was in crisis, because a lot of people lost their jobs, because a lot of
businesses had to cut down on expenses, or cut down workers, so many people lost their jobs, especially those who work in the restaurants,
and everything that is connected with foods, or mass entertainment places, where people stopped going there so much. So I think that because
many people were already in a critical situation, and the state didn't actually offer any support to these people. They were just saying, if
you are going to fire people because of the Coronavirus, we're going to punish those businesses, but of course you as a worker are not
protected at all. And this was also something that people did not like, and already then the Belarussian currency devalued a lot. So I think
that this all is a process of, like it's one process but it's just different stages I would say.

A5: Ok. And like, other uprisings, or rebellions, or protest movements, for example in Ukraine, but also in something like the yellow vests.
There was and sometimes still is the threat of right wing or even fascist groups taking part in the mobilising, and maybe even they manage
to take over some part of the movement. And I'm wondering if you see any signs of something similar happening in Belarus too at the moment,
or what are your views on this issue?

B5: Well, I think the difference between us and the countries you mentioned, or the movements, is that in Belarus, fortunately or
unfortunately, there are no movements possible. He cut down on both. The leftists, the centrists, the right wingers. So he doesn't create
anything that could be a threat to his authority. I mean, from the parties that are registered, of course, there are a lot of conservative
ones, but they are so marginal, I mean they have maybe one hundred members, they are not influential at all. And if we speak about the
street groups, the people who would be more like these neo nazis, over time they all got into football hooliganism, so there was an
anti-fascist football hooligans, and also right wingers. But both groups were dispersed in the last five years. So it means that these
people were not, they could not make any political agenda, and they didn't want, it was fine for them to just fight each other. But I can
imagine that if there is this vacuum of power, you know, if there is a space where people could potentially rise up, or raise their heads, I
could expect that there could be people who might be forming a union or... I would say that the general, domestic right wing views, are
quite widespread in Belarus, like homophobic views, or people who don't like anybody who is not Slav, you know, so i would say that many
young people would support such ideas if there would be a movement like that, and this is actually scary. But, the thing is that for the
moment, in this protest, which is also something nice I think, no group, no political group controls it, or organises it. And in all of the
protests you would not see any flag, any symbol, anything that belongs to some organised group. So, if you see pictures where people are
waving these flags, like red-white flags, this is only because this flag was used all these years by the opposition, so now people just
start using it because the symbol existed. But it doesn't mean that they support any of the parties with a nationalist idea. This protest is
not at all about nationalism or patriotism, so people are just using symbols that are already there. So if you go and visit the protests
people would even have the same slogans that I have heard for the last fifteen years, that usually belongs to the opposition, but just
because people don't have the culture of protest, they use the old stuff. It's interesting that people are trying to copy and paste
something that already existed, and transform it maybe into something different. But like I say, I haven't seen anyone who would try to work
as a group. I know that the right wing hooligans, like the anti-fascist hooligans, participate in the protest, but for the moment they're
not pushing any of their agenda. So, I heard even that there was some collaboration between people from different factions, on fighting the
cops. Like, that they were saying, ok, we would not fight each other in the streets, because we are now all together against the regime. So
for the moment it looks like everybody has the consensus that Lukashenko has to resign, political prisoners, wherever they are, should be
out. And that's it. And that's something that everybody supports, and nobody pushes any other agenda.

A6: I understand. Do you have any ideas on what the anarchist movement in Belarus can play at the moment in the situation?

B6: Yeah, I participated in the protest, just like other anarchists, and for us it was also not the easiest times, because actually nobody
is ever prepared for anything like that, or for the uprising. I think many people didn't believe that something like this happens. People
were preparing for maybe one, two days of protest, and the protests are continuing. And I think it's not so easy for the people who are not
used to every day protest, which is very decentralised and which is very self-organised. And it looks like what you discuss in the morning,
and you plan for something in the evening, it becomes outdated in two hours, just because something else happens, and people decided to go
there. Or you're bringing a loud speaker because you want to use it, because you think there's going to be space where people are going to
stand and listen to you, and then it becomes a walking protest, and you can not really talk because you have to walk and march and so on.
And then the other time you bring one type of leaflet and it's not the topic anymore. So, for me it looks like, and I think it's not only
for the anarchists but for all people, like you come and it looks like you are chasing the train that is always two steps behind you. And on
the one hand it's kind of nice because it's good that people are organising very fast and spontaneously, but on the other hand it's
difficult to plan strategically, or to plan something deeper than what is happening, plus it's not really possible for now to promote the
agenda that is creating the new future. Because still we are stuck in the past, and it looks like first we have to make Lukashenko resign,
and then starting the talk about what we could do next, or how we could organise next, how we could, maybe we should not stick to
representative democracy anymore. So, what anarchists are doing, and you should know that anarchists are not any big or popular movement in
the country, but people tried to organise in different cities, mostly in the Western part of Belarus. What we're doing is either we're
going, we also decided that in most times we're not participating with our symbols, so for us it's important to pass on our ideas and not
the identity, so it looks like when you are playing a simple protestor, people are much more friendly to you, rather than when you are
deciding to promote your identity and also some programme and so on. So what we tried to do is that we tried to spread thousands of leaflets
on different subjects. So for example when the rhetoric of the protest changed to this peaceful protest, people started saying that people
who are building barricades, or people who are fighting back the cops, are provocateurs, and we should search all people who wear masks and
so on. So we spread a lot of leaflets about the fact that all tactics of protest should be welcome and people should choose what they want,
and that we should not give flowers to the cops who beat up our people tomorrow. And people actually supported us, because this peaceful
protest thing is something that is advertised, but it doesn't mean that it is supported by everyone. So everyone is talking about peaceful,
peaceful, peaceful, but over time people are understanding that just standing in the streets every day is just something that makes you
tired, and not really making you achieve anything, and I think this is, people need time to get to this point, you know. And eh, another
thing is that we tried to go and visit the workers protests, to spread leaflets about ho to organise the strike, or how to organise the
strike committee, and the fact that they can not only ask for resignation of the president, but also try to ask for something that would
improve their conditions,and so on. We also reacted to the thing about the violence, because people are all the time saying, stop the
violence, and they think that violence is just when cops are beating you up, but we tried to promote the idea that violence is the state,
you know, violence is not just when you are getting beaten up, but when you are deprived of the authority to decide on your life and so on.
So this monopoly of violence was one of the leaflets that we spread. Also there is an anarchist cooperative for printing that said that
there would be printing for free, all the materials that are printed for the strikes, or banners, and so on. So they tried to support it in
this way. So basically for the moment it's not so much we can do, because, like I said, when you are forty people in a crowd of 300,000, you
can not do much, you can not influence many people, but at least you can influence a thousand, two thousand? And so on. We are trying to be
creative, we are producing, like, a leaflet every two days, because all our leaflets become outdated tomorrow. Because the protest is
changing so fast, and what the rhetoric behind the protest is is changing. So we are trying to keep up, which is not always possible. And of
course there are also structures like the anarchist black cross, who are supporting anarchists who are repressed. And the other day I read
that there were more than fifty people, including anarchists and anti-fascists, detained over this time, and people served two hundred days
altogether, behind bars. And two people are now charged with the criminal article of organising mass riots. And today I read the information
that they were actually tortured. One of them for sure was tortured with the electric shocker, just like in Russia. So it looks like our
special services are taking after the Russian brothers.

A7: I'm really sorry to hear that. I was also wondering, because you mentioned the leaflets, and printing of other materials, are there
other alternative media or communication channels that you see that are being used now? Is there maybe also something like Telegram or
digital media that plays some kind of role for the protest?

B7: Yes, Telegram is very influential, and I think it's influential both in the way of coordinating, because like I said the protests became
very decentralised, so there are hun dreads of chats; chats of medics, chats of teachers, chats of sports athletes and so on. And also local
chats, like in the residential districts, when people are coordinating if they are going to go to make a protest, if they want to do this or
that. Of course it's also flooded with different possible undercover police who are following it, but on the other hand it's better than
nothing, where people could coordinate. But at the same time there's other channels, Telegram channels, that were already influential before
the elections, and they have become, I think, the audience grew, five times, I think, from the 9th of August. And Lukashenko tried to banish
the Telegram channels, and tried to switch off the internet for three days, but it didn't really work, so people used VPN and Tor, and I
think now he started to block basically the websites of one hundred independent media and basically now everyone is using VPN, which is very
good, because anarchist websites have been blocked for, I think three years now, so it's good that now everyone knows how to access them as
well, because they need to access other things. One problem with these Telegram chats, Telegram channels, is that the most essential one is
created and it's run by one or two people who live abroad, and they are Belarussians, and we know who is behind them because these people
were de-anonymised by the police, and basically the problem with it is that it's actually something that is coordinating the protest, so
basically what he's doing is that he says, ok, tomorrow the plan is like that. And of course it's important, because two million people ()
to this guy, and it's important that two million people would be informed where people are going to meet. But what it means is that this
person is actually controlling the audience, in a way that no other channel can be so influential in calling for the protest. So for example
if I would like to create something else, if I want people to hear me, I have to contact that guy and ask him to post it. Which, he was
doing actually, so whenever there is a protest you can always send the information to him, like if you are a teacher and you are creating a
protest of teachers, he is publishing it and saying, hey, come to support, or there was also the women's march the other day, and of course
it was not initiated by that guy, but I'm sure the women who organised it just sent the information over to him. But what I'm saying is that
it's very dangerous when a few people are controlling the big segment of the audience. It means that if tomorrow they would not like to
publish something, this is not reaching people. But one other big plus, for the protest, because they have this channel, in Belarus it's of
course, like in other countries, it's forbidden to call for even the peaceful protests. They have to be authorised by the local authorities
and so on and so on, so everything that happens now in the city is illegal basically. So if you're in media, if you're registered media, you
can not actually say, you can not write, tomorrow there's going to be a protest at this time, because you're going to be shut down, because
you're media, and you're calling for an illegal activity. The same is true for these three women, the candidates that I was talking about,
the united teams of the electoral campaigns. They were in no way calling people to protest. They were all the time saying, we believe that
people are going to decide which way they are going to protect their votes, and whatever way they take, is good for them. So they were not
saying, hey, after the elections you should come and protest, they were just saying, you should just say what you're going to do about it.
And everybody knew that it's about protest, right? So they were not calling for any protests, because it's illegal to call for that, but
they were for sure in contact with that guy, from abroad, who does not care about legality because he cannot be punished. So in this way
they were playing that kind of game, that the person who cannot be punished can say it, and he has the channel of two million people. While
the campaign team is keeping face and saying, hey, we didn't call for anything, and so on. So on one hand it's dangerous, and on the other
hand it could be used, used to overcome the laws, which are suppressing mass gatherings.

A8: Also something that came up in the mass media, was that Russia or Putin has, or is now providing more cops, or is ready to provide more
cops, and what role do you think the threat of any kind of Russian intervention, because it could also be much more than just more cops,
what do you think, what kind of role does this play at the moment?

B8: Well it's really difficult to say, because there's always a threat because Putin and Lukashenko are really weird people, who could do
something that is not profitable for them. Basically, like starting a war is a good tactic of the Russian president, just to get away the
attention from his problems, you know, from domestic problems. But, on the other hand we should understand that, in Belarus, Belarus is not,
eh, Ukraine. It doesn't have a very strict division between people who identify as Belarussians or people who identify more as Russians,
people who speak different languages, and so on. So in Belarus the population is very, I would say, to a greater extent, equal in terms of
identifying themselves as someone who is a little bit different from Russia but doesn't really care, like we don't have patriots so much,
but not necessarily pro-Russian people or anti-Russian people. So it means that in this case he would not find so easy the ground for
creating the forces who would fight for Putin for Russia and so on, so it's really difficult because it's not there. So you would either
have to bring them in, but for the people it would be weird. On the other hand, it's going to be very difficult in this time, because, like
I said, the whole country is protesting, it means that people are not protesting just in one part, and you can use the other part for
anti-protest, right? People are protesting even in the cities that are close to the Russian border. So I would say that if Putin is going
to, I don't know, invade, or anything, there are going to be partisans against him. I am sure. So it just creates another wave of violence I
would say, and I'm sure that many people would just go underground and start fighting, because now it's not any more about Lukashenko or
not, it's about the fact that people realise that nobody is listening to them and they are tired of it. And they want to live in a different
world. So it's not about them choosing between Putin and Lukashenko. Plus, Putin also understands that Belarus is not Ukraine, like we don't
have any kind of natural resources, or plants or factories, that are very very rich and you want to control the territory, so basically he's
invading poor land, and he would have to pay for a lot of things to be done there, and I think basically it is counterintuitive, like it's
illogical for Putin to do it, but I can imagine of course that Putin is stupid, and he could do anything, just because he thinks that, he
wants to support the regime, not necessarily Lukashenko because they're quarreling most of the time. And on the other hand, like I said, the
protest is not anti-Russian, and also this united campaign, is not anti-Russian. So they were never saying that we're going to close all the
connections with Russia and want to join European Union and so on. This is not on the agenda. So I think Putin also sees it, and he
understands that he actually, later he can just cooperate with the new regime, and it's gonna be fine. Because nobody tries to cut all the
connections. So I think we should understand that when we are getting information from the authorities, when they are publishing this like,
ah Lukashenko said, that, Lukashenko called Putin, Putin said this, we should understand that we only get what they want us to get. Of
course there is a lot that is being played behind the scenes. They talk a lot and for sure they maybe provide some support and we're not
going to know about it, because they don't want us to know. But they want us to know about this new creation of this special force that
Russia is gonna send. And I think this is because they want us to be worried about it. So, I think that there is no actual force that is
being created there, and it's just the negotiation with Lukashenko, that Lukashenko said, ok can you just say it to the media, and Putin
said, ok, yes, and you should, I don't know, you should think how you will pay me off. So I think that many things that we are hearing is
not actually true, it's just done to make us think about them, or make us scared and so on.

A9: I see. Makes sense. Are there any other factors, or some kind of hurdles, or things, that you think could prevent the protests to get
even bigger and keep going? Is there anything you see that is a kind of hurdle?

B9: Well, I think one of the obstacles could be the actual tactics of the protest that is taking place now, like just protesting peacefully
without no clear aim, you know? So, they are demanding many things for three weeks, and not a single demand was met. And I think people are
getting also frustrated and maybe tired of protesting every day, and all of us, I think it's important for all of us to know when it's going
to end. Like, people want to know that, ok, two weeks, then maybe I can continue, but if it's not two weeks then maybe I should just be at
home. So I think that the biggest obstacle is that people are expecting fast change, but they are choosing a tactic that can make them wait
for years. Because peaceful protest is always something that takes many years, and Lukashenko is not a soft dictator, he is not going to go
just because you are bringing him more and more flowers every week, or asking him, or you are laughing at him on Telegram. ButI think what
is happening now is that people try to bring more followers from the establishment, and I think in many cases it works, because Belarussians
don't have a culture of protest, because there was much less people on the 9th and 10th, when there was actual violence from the police, but
when it's a peaceful protest, much more people are coming. So I think there are much more people who would support the protest, if they were
not afraid. SO they cannot go and build barricades, but they could go out and bring flowers to the street, so basically for them it's a way
to participate. So I think it's good that people should find a form that is good enough for them to participate, which is not extreme for
them. So basically it helped to create a bigger crowd, and when people saw the violence in the first days, a lot of people who were there
from the establishment left. So most of the singers who were supporting Lukashenko, singers and all these cultural circles, they now all
talk about the fact that it's not their president, and he should go. Many athletes joined the protests this year, this Sunday, saying that
they are also against him, although they are always paid from the budget, and they are given flats for their achievements and so on. It's
something unheard of, you know, so that many people are joining. Many people from the football teams that are also supported by the state
are openly showing their disrespect to the president or their support of the protests. Many people from the propagandist state channels quit
their jobs or started striking, including many theatres, and so on. And so these peaceful protests, it shows, hey, there are a lot of people
and you can join us. And it may take longer, because not many people would be able to quit their jobs so fast, but at the same time many
people are doing it and they are showing an example. Also there is a special fund created for the police and army people who would quit
their job. And this fund is giving them some money, and also is retraining them for working in other jobs. And more and more cops, I'm not
speaking about riot police of course, but cops from local police departments or maybe from the investigation committee and so on, so they
are, almost every day two cops are saying, ok I'm going to resign. And this is, even if it's not going to bring Lukashenko down, this is
something we've never seen before. On the one hand, like I said before, this is an obstacle, because it takes a lot of time and people are
getting really tired and frustrated that the victory is not coming so fast, but on the other hand probably this time is needed for some
people to understand that the situation is really shitty.

A10: Could that mean that there is just going to be another president, someone else that is more popular, without really changing any core
structures? So I'm asking what is your general outlook at the moment, do you think it could get much more radical and fundamental, or do you
think, with what's possible, it's more likely to go in a more lenient way?

B10: Well, I think for sure the agenda of this protest is representative democracy, and it's 99% of people who want that, and no anarchist
groups or anything can change that, because we don't have so much influential Telegram channels like these people. So we should understand
that what these people want is legal, law-abiding democracy. Nothing more. But, on the other hand, for us, as a country, this is quite
radical. Because I think that after the people understood that in every city there is some people who could demand change, they are going
and clearly saying to the authorities, to the local municipalities, administrations and so on, hey, we don't want you, we hired you, go fuck
off. So I think that this is something very radical for Belarussians who have never before talked so aggressively with the authorities. So I
hope, and I think they have tried it and they realise themselves as the subject not the object of power, so now they could use this power
every time, so of course they want a new president, not more, but on the other hand now they also want more self-governance, I mean
de-centralisation, and I hope this is going to be done in the future, if Lukashenko goes away, so people would become more independent in
terms of territories, and less dependent on Minsk, which I think this is a very good thing. Plus people, I think if we now agree on this
culture, people would be able to, whenever there is a problem, and whenever they see that somebody is not going in line with what they asked
for, they might again be protesting, and demanding change, and calling off the delegates, or the parliamentarians, and so on. So I think
that this is nothing more than representative democracy, but I think for Belarussians it is quite a big achievement already.

A11: Yeah. You mentioned the repression and also that now people are having criminal court cases. What can people outside of Belarus do to
support especially the anarchist movement in Belarus, but beyond that even, what do you think are good things that people could do right now?

B11: Right, so I don't know if you're going to give people some links, together with this podcast, together with this show, where people
could help with money to different structures, including the structures funding the striking workers, or the structures that support all the
victims of violence, or people who got fines, or people who need legal support and so on. These links are working for the wider population.
If I speak about anarchist movement, for the moment Anarchist Black Cross is probably the biggest way, or the easiest way, to put money
into. So the Anarchist Black Cross has accounts in Europe, and paypal accounts, that later could provide funds for providing lawyers, or
giving people money because they lost jobs, or people who sat fifteen days in jail they cannot earn money, and then they come out and they
need some support. Some people need to get away from the country and they need flats, if they want to get rid of cops, so basically this is
all the money that could be sent, and support the repressed. And if you want you can always send money to the same accounts, to the ABC,
with the note, street fund, and this money would go to actual anarchist protesting groups, which would provide them with more materials,
more money to print something, to maybe produce some equipment, or support the printing coop that I was talking about that is printing for
free, but of course they need money to print for free. So basically there is two ways, you can either support the protestors with money, so
then you need to put a note, street fund, or you can send money to ABC which would be used for repression.

A12: Yes, any links would be awesome if you can give them to us and we will add them to the show notes. To maybe come to an end, is there
anything that I didn't ask or that you would like to share that wasn't touched?

B12: The only thing that now comes to mind is...yeah, I I covered quite a lot and I think the questions were quite good.

A13: Ok. Then yeah, thanks so much for taking the time to talk to us, and I wish you and your comrades lots of strength and solidarity.
Let's stay in touch and maybe we can do this again sometime.

B13: If you have any more questions you could also go to the ABC Belarus website, and there is also one news website that is trying to cover
some news from the anarchist perspective in English. I would also give the link and you will find it in the show notes.

A14: Awesome, thanks a lot. in Belarus, but beyond that even, what do you think are good things that people could do right now?

B11: Right, so I don't know if you're going to give people some links, together with this podcast, together with this show, where people
could help with money to different structures, including the structures funding the striking workers, or the structures that support all the
victims of violence, or people who got fines, or people who need legal support and so on. These links are working for the wider population.
If I speak about anarchist movement, for the moment Anarchist Black Cross is probably the biggest way, or the easiest way, to put money
into. So the Anarchist Black Cross has accounts in Europe, and paypal accounts, that later could provide funds for providing lawyers, or
giving people money because they lost jobs, or people who sat fifteen days in jail they cannot earn money, and then they come out and they
need some support. Some people need to get away from the country and they need flats, if they want to get rid of cops, so basically this is
all the money that could be sent, and support the repressed. And if you want you can always send money to the same accounts, to the ABC,
with the note, street fund, and this money would go to actual anarchist protesting groups, which would provide them with more materials,
more money to print something, to maybe produce some equipment, or support the printing coop that I was talking about that is printing for
free, but of course they need money to print for free. So basically there is two ways, you can either support the protestors with money, so
then you need to put a note, street fund, or you can send money to ABC which would be used for repression.

A12: Yes, any links would be awesome if you can give them to us and we will add them to the show notes. To maybe come to an end, is there
anything that I didn't ask or that you would like to share that wasn't touched?

B12: The only thing that now comes to mind is...yeah, I I covered quite a lot and I think the questions were quite good.

A13: Ok. Then yeah, thanks so much for taking the time to talk to us, and I wish you and your comrades lots of strength and solidarity.
Let's stay in touch and maybe we can do this again sometime.

B13: If you have any more questions you could also go to the ABC Belarus website, and there is also one news website that is trying to cover
some news from the anarchist perspective in English. I would also give the link and you will find it in the show notes.

A14: Awesome, thanks a lot.

https://i-f-a.org/2020/09/02/a-radio-interview-with-anarchist-comrade-about-belarus-radio-podcast-and-full-transcript/


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