#WORLD #WORLDWIDE #RUSSIA #ANARCHISM #LIBRARY #News #Journal #Update - (en) #Russia, AIT: They do not want to fight: 2 interviews with a #Russian and a #Ukrainian (ca, de, it, pt, tr)[machine translation]

 We are publishing translations of interviews with a citizen of Russia and a

citizen of Ukraine, which they gave after they were able to leave the respective
countries, not wanting to join the army and take part in the ongoing armed
conflict between the two states. As anarcho-syndicalists, we do not agree with
all the thoughts and formulations expressed during these interviews. But we
consider it important to voice the opinions of those who did not succumb to the
militaristic and patriotic frenzy and, despite the frantic propaganda from all
sides, remained humanists and opponents of military madness. ---- INTERVIEW WITH
IVAN, A YOUNG MAN FROM RUSSIA BY MEMBERS OF THE FRENCH ANTI-MILITARIAN SOLIDARITY
INITIATIVE WITH DESERTERS, PACIFISTS AND REFUGEES FROM UKRAINE, RUSSIA AND
BELARUS "OLGA TARATUTA" (IOT)

IOT: Good afternoon, Ivan!

Ivan: Good afternoon! My name is Ivan, I am 24 years old. I live in Moscow with a
Russian mother. I am Russian, although my father is Ukrainian and lives in Kyiv.
I am a student studying the humanities.

IOT: How did you find out about the beginning of the war in Ukraine?

Ivan: I was in Europe with a friend, on a Schengen tourist visa. He returned
directly to Russia. I, given my personal situation, realized that for me it risks
being a difficult matter. I enrolled in a university in one of the European
countries, primarily in order to get a "student" visa and try to build my future
away from military madness. I no longer saw an opportunity for myself to return
to Russia. However, in order to use this visa, I had to return to Russia and
formally apply for a study visa at the embassy of that country in Moscow. At that
moment, the embassies were not closed, and everyone seemed to observe certain
"formalities". So I went to get the necessary official request.

However, upon my return, I immediately discovered that things were not so simple.
Moreover, I began to receive very unambiguous threats on the phone to kill me
from unknown persons, both for the reason that my father is Ukrainian and because
I am homosexual. How did these people get my phone number and information about
me? I don't know that... Perhaps from the draft board?

It must be borne in mind that in Russia there is compulsory military service for
all men, and from the age of 18 you are required to register at the military
registration and enlistment office of your district or city.

IOT: How did you react to Putin's announcement of mobilization?

Ivan: When Putin announced mobilization, I realized that I was in great danger.
Because the Russian army needs "cannon fodder". Official requests for my student
visa have been blocked. And I decided to run. Since my Schengen tourist visa was
still valid, I went to Azerbaijan, from where I made my way to Europe. I read in
the media, especially in social media, that Germany is ready to give shelter to
Russians fleeing the army. Therefore, I decided to go to this country, although
my visa was for France.

IOT: How were you received in Germany?

IvanA: It was a huge disappointment. I was immediately made to understand that I
was not welcome, contrary to what is being proclaimed everywhere. As soon as I
got off the plane, I had an appointment with the immigration authorities to ask
for asylum. Ironically, I was given to understand that if I had Ukrainian
citizenship (I had the right to claim it because my father is Ukrainian, but I
never did this, because nationality does not really matter to me, it's all only
an administrative formality), he would immediately receive refugee status. But
since I am a Russian, I made them worried... They immediately sent me to the
administrative detention center at the airport. This center is located in the
zone "behind the customs", that is, officially it is not a German territory, a
kind of "no man's land". In fact, this is a real prison.

The German cops treated the prisoners very coldly, very "officially". I was
almost the only European, all the rest were refugees from Sudan, Turkey,
Afghanistan. I noticed that the policemen were acting in a racist way, in the
sense that they did not treat me as harshly as they treated other refugees. This
made me very sad, because I felt solidarity with my comrades in misfortune.

You also need to understand that the German authorities run this prison like a
"hotel": if you have money, you can pay for your stay: 135 euros per night! A
prison for the price of a three-star hotel!!! Since they took the cash I had on
me, they just used it! So they charged me 4,000 euros for the month I spent in
the center - more than half of my savings!

IOT: How did you end up in France?

Ivan: A few weeks later they explained to me that they would not give me asylum,
because, in accordance with the Dublin procedure, I must be in France, the
country that issued my visa. So they sent me to France. Moreover, I was forbidden
to stay in Germany for at least 30 days, because I violated the rules for
entering German territory!!! A month later, they told me that they had agreed
with the French authorities and I would be deported, so I must be ready to go at
any moment! I was asked if I knew anyone in France who could give me shelter, but
I didn't know anyone. I called my mother and she got her friends involved.
Finally, she found someone for me who would agree to be my local contact. One
fine day the German border guards came for me without any warning, to take me to
the plane. I was told that I was being sent to France.

Upon arrival at the airport closest to the place of residence of the person whose
contact my mother provided me, no one met me. Neither my mother's female contact,
who was not even warned, nor the border police. The airline steward told me where
I should go to declare myself. When I arrived at the police post, they stared at
me in amazement, not understanding who I was and what I was doing here. Finally,
rummaging through their computers, they found a message from the Germans, who
informed them of my arrival. They told me that I could go because, anyway, I
still had a valid tourist visa. And they gave me an address where I can go to
apply for asylum.

IOT: And then what happened?

Ivan: I finally managed to meet with the one whose contacts my mother gave me. A
very nice woman, but very old. I knew that I could not stay with her for a long
time. Through the mediation of an organization in Germany that helps deserters,
with which I have been in contact since my imprisonment in the center, I had
contacts of various associations in France, including the Olga Taratuta
initiative. Finally, one person kindly offered to give me temporary shelter in
the Paris region, where I could formally apply for asylum.

Applying for asylum is a real obstacle course: you have to meet with many
services and administrations and stand in endless lines, being mistreated by the
police. And I was lucky again, as a European, because I saw that the cops were
more polite to me than to other asylum seekers from Africa or Asia, whom they
literally treated like dogs.

After I finish this series of meetings, I must wait for my fate to be decided.
This may take several months.

IOT: How do you survive all this time?

Ivan: I have the rest of my savings, but life in France is expensive. My mother
sends me some money through friends in Turkey or elsewhere to get around
international banking restrictions. But this is also very expensive. And my
mother is not rich at all and may lose her job. I'm still drawing, maybe I can
sell the drawings to earn some money?

IOT: How do you see your future in the short and medium term?

Ivan: All I know is that I will never return to Russia again. I don't want to go
back there, this country is dead for me. I intend to go to the European
university I enrolled in because the study they offer interests me and I think it
might give me opportunities in the future. Never lose hope.

Original published:
https://nowar.solidarite.online/blog/entretien-avec-ivan-jeune-ayant-fui-la-mobilisation-en-russie

INTERVIEW OVER THE PHONE BY THE GERMAN ORGANIZATION "GIRLFRIENDS AND FRIENDS OF A
CLASS-LESS SOCIETY" (FSSO) IN OCTOBER WITH THE UKRAINIAN LEFT ACTIVIST ANDREY WHO
WERE ABLE TO HIDE FROM MOBILIZATION AND THEN TO LEAVE UKRAINE

APCD: From the very beginning you took a very clear position against
participation in the war for Ukraine. In an interview in the spring of 2022, you
said: "We must support mass desertion and insurrection on both sides, as this is
the only real way to go beyond a purely individual conscientious objection and
stop the draft. We must counteract Ukraine's image of a successful campaign: this
war is unwinnable and every minute of denying it kills more and more people."
Following Ukraine's military successes in September 2022, we have seen further
escalation in recent weeks. There are many voices, even from the left, who
continue to hope that Ukraine can win the war and that the Putin regime will then
collapse. Do you still stand on your social-revolutionary-defeatist position? And
if so, why?

Andrey: In any case, I remain at my position. And I have two objections to this
new optimism. First, I don't think a full-blown Russian invasion is anything new,
and I think it's naive to expect the recently introduced measures to be lifted
later. If you look at the last eight years in Ukraine, the state of emergency has
been the norm all this time. Since 2014, the conflict in Donbass has been used to
silence any dissent, rebellion, and criticism of the Ukrainian state. Even the
left labeled the protests against the rise in the cost of living as
"pro-Russian." The emphasis was on the fact that in the current situation it is
necessary to make certain sacrifices in the name of a bright future of European
prosperity. The organizers and participants of such protests are accused of
promoting Russian interests. These accusations came from right-wing nationalists
and various Nazis who often co-organized such hate campaigns.

Even the mere claim that there were Nazis in Ukraine was seen as potentially
detrimental to the national cause. For many anarchists, it was more important to
paint a favorable picture of their own state and thereby speed up accession to
the European Union, because they pin their hopes on improving the situation in
Ukraine with this.

In my opinion, the Russian invasion in February was not a complete break from
what was already happening. It just made it more convenient and more habitual to
call everything you don't like "pro-Russian" and strengthened the described
dynamics. I think it is rather naïve to think that the centralization of power
that has come about with the sharp curtailment of workers' rights will be
reversed once political stability is restored. That the Ukrainian government will
simply abandon the legal framework it has put in place since the start of the war
to suppress protests and civil society voices, in which anyone who deviates from
the official line can be branded as an agent of Putin or someone else - it's hard
for me to imagine.

My second doubt about the new optimism concerns what exactly this war is being
fought for. I am not a military strategist or an expert, but even the most
optimistic about recent events - Zelensky, his generals, various nationalists -
do not have a clearly defined goal that would be considered a victory. This is
understandable, because it is impossible to say what such a victory should be.
Are we talking about restoring the borders to what they were before February
2022? In this case, Russia could continue to bomb Ukraine from afar, even from
the Belgorod region. Are we talking about the reconquest or "liberation" of
Crimea? This will be very difficult, since the narrow isthmus that connects the
peninsula to the mainland has served as a kind of natural military fortification
for centuries. An attempt to overcome such a geographical obstacle or capture a
city like Mariupol would cost the lives of dozens, and even hundreds of thousands
of soldiers if successful. Not to mention the civilian casualties. When we talk
about such scenarios of war games, we often forget that the Ukrainian army is not
composed of volunteers, but almost entirely of conscripts. For such an offensive,
the state would have to mobilize even more soldiers, that is, remove the previous
restrictions on conscription. The government of Ukraine refuses to admit how many
people die in this meat grinder every week, every month. As someone who lived in
this country with closed borders and just managed to escape, I saw all sorts of
people trying to get out or somehow evade the draft. That there will be a massive
willingness to die for this completely obscure, indefinite victory is therefore a
false notion that I would like to refute. Not to mention the civilian casualties.
When we talk about such scenarios of war games, we often forget that the
Ukrainian army is not composed of volunteers, but almost entirely of conscripts.
For such an offensive, the state would have to mobilize even more soldiers, that
is, remove the previous restrictions on conscription. The government of Ukraine
refuses to admit how many people die in this meat grinder every week, every
month. As someone who lived in this country with closed borders and just managed
to escape, I saw all sorts of people trying to get out or somehow evade the
draft. That there will be a massive willingness to die for this completely
obscure, indefinite victory is therefore a false notion that I would like to
refute. Not to mention the civilian casualties. When we talk about such scenarios
of war games, we often forget that the Ukrainian army is not composed of
volunteers, but almost entirely of conscripts. For such an offensive, the state
would have to mobilize even more soldiers, that is, remove the previous
restrictions on conscription. The government of Ukraine refuses to admit how many
people die in this meat grinder every week, every month. As someone who lived in
this country with closed borders and just managed to escape, I saw all sorts of
people trying to get out or somehow evade the draft. That there will be a massive
willingness to die for this completely obscure, indefinite victory is therefore a
false notion that I would like to refute. When we talk about such scenarios of
war games, we often forget that the Ukrainian army is not composed of volunteers,
but almost entirely of conscripts. For such an offensive, the state would have to
mobilize even more soldiers, that is, remove the previous restrictions on
conscription. The government of Ukraine refuses to admit how many people die in
this meat grinder every week, every month. As someone who lived in this country
with closed borders and just managed to escape, I saw all sorts of people trying
to get out or somehow evade the draft. That there will be a massive willingness
to die for this completely obscure, indefinite victory is therefore a false
notion that I would like to refute. When we talk about such scenarios of war
games, we often forget that the Ukrainian army is not composed of volunteers, but
almost entirely of conscripts. For such an offensive, the state would have to
mobilize even more soldiers, that is, remove the previous restrictions on
conscription. The government of Ukraine refuses to admit how many people die in
this meat grinder every week, every month. As someone who lived in this country
with closed borders and just managed to escape, I saw all sorts of people trying
to get out or somehow evade the draft. That there will be a massive willingness
to die for this completely obscure, indefinite victory is therefore a false
notion that I would like to refute. and almost entirely from conscripts. For such
an offensive, the state would have to mobilize even more soldiers, that is,
remove the previous restrictions on conscription. The government of Ukraine
refuses to admit how many people die in this meat grinder every week, every
month. As someone who lived in this country with closed borders and just managed
to escape, I saw all sorts of people trying to get out or somehow evade the
draft. That there will be a massive willingness to die for this completely
obscure, indefinite victory is therefore a false notion that I would like to
refute. and almost entirely from conscripts. For such an offensive, the state
would have to mobilize even more soldiers, that is, remove the previous
restrictions on conscription. The government of Ukraine refuses to admit how many
people die in this meat grinder every week, every month. As someone who lived in
this country with closed borders and just managed to escape, I saw all sorts of
people trying to get out or somehow evade the draft. That there will be a massive
willingness to die for this completely obscure, indefinite victory is therefore a
false notion that I would like to refute. how many people die in this meat
grinder every week, every month. As someone who lived in this country with closed
borders and just managed to escape, I saw all sorts of people trying to get out
or somehow evade the draft. That there will be a massive willingness to die for
this completely obscure, indefinite victory is therefore a false notion that I
would like to refute. how many people die in this meat grinder every week, every
month. As someone who lived in this country with closed borders and just managed
to escape, I saw all sorts of people trying to get out or somehow evade the
draft. That there will be a massive willingness to die for this completely
obscure, indefinite victory is therefore a false notion that I would like to refute.

APCD: Although you fled a few months after the start of the Russian invasion, you
probably still have connections in Ukraine and can assess the situation there
much better than we do. How would you describe the mood after more than six
months of war? Has anything changed lately? In Germany, the image of an unbroken
fighting spirit is always drawn, thousands of volunteers who have gone into the
army are reported. Has the enthusiasm for war disappeared during this time? Which
class layers support the war and for what reasons - is it pure nationalism, fear
of the Russian regime, or maybe a matter of financial incentives. I mean: do
people from the poorer classes fight in the Donbass because they get relatively
"good" pay for it, or at least they don't sit without work? Many on the left here
believe that people volunteer to sign up to defend Kyiv. Are they now sitting in
tanks at the front in the Donbass? And what classes are we talking about here?

Andrey: It is extremely difficult to get a complete picture of the situation, so
I will limit myself to a few aspects. In any case, reality has very little in
common with what the Ukrainian and, even more so, the Western media claim.
Enthusiasm for the war has definitely waned in recent months. There have been no
massive waves of military volunteers since about March. In general, the more
someone learns about the military himself or through relatives, the less
nationalistic he is. Anyone who has experienced the humiliation of military drill
or the miserable equipment of soldiers, who knows the terrible stories about
officers, their insufficient training and insane orders to take the city in a few
days with almost no weapons, will rather not believe the optimistic stories about
the speedy recapture of "our lost territories" that Zelensky drums into us every
day. Yes, what you said is correct: Initially, many people volunteered for the
Territorial Defense Units, which are mostly local militias. But among those who
were then sent to the south of the country, to the front in the Donbass, the
enthusiasm for the war quickly faded. Previously, they checked their IDs at the
entrances to Kyiv, patrolled, stood at checkpoints, and now they suddenly found
themselves at the front, barely trained and minimally armed. Even if this or that
would be allowed to drive tanks, if they were given them at all. So the
enthusiasm for war has definitely faded. and now they suddenly found themselves
at the front, barely trained and minimally armed. Even if this or that would be
allowed to drive tanks, if they were given them at all. So the enthusiasm for war
has definitely faded. and now they suddenly found themselves at the front, barely
trained and minimally armed. Even if this or that would be allowed to drive
tanks, if they were given them at all. So the enthusiasm for war has definitely
faded.

And, of course, how a person is affected by the realities of war is a class
issue. You're much more likely to be drafted if you don't have the money for the
right bribe. Before the war, you could buy your freedom from officers for about a
thousand dollars; today it is probably worth significantly more. And if you
didn't have money before, then you probably won't have it now. You are also more
likely to be called if you dropped out of school or never studied. Also, you
can't go past the military registration and enlistment office if you need papers
for official employment. So, if you don't want to join the army, you will most
likely be stuck in the informal sector and in poverty; you just have fewer options.

It should also be noted that Ukrainian universities are somewhat more proletarian
than Western ones. There are still remnants of the Soviet system, when education
was paid for by the state and was either cheap or completely free. But almost
every university in Ukraine requires you to take a military preparatory course,
so that it is written that you already have experience with weapons.

Unfortunately, there are currently no particularly visible examples of social or
class struggle in Ukraine. But there is a lot of resistance that certainly
doesn't make headlines or appear in the New York Times. Unfortunately, it is
almost always isolated. Many Ukrainians try to individually hide from the
military authorities and the police in order to avoid being drafted. Some try to
cross the border with dubious papers, others pay to register with disabled people
so they can leave the country. Still others try to leave the country with medical
certificates or apply to foreign universities, but in recent weeks it has been
declared illegal.

But collective action was not very successful. A state of emergency was declared
after the invasion in February, and since then the police have cracked down on
any protests that were not entirely peaceful or pro-government. They also issue
conscription orders to men on the streets to quell demonstrations. If you are a
man and come to the demonstration, the policeman will simply give you a draft
certificate. Then you must report to the recruiting office the next day or next
week. As a result, of course, fewer people participate in street actions. That's
why it's mostly women taking to the streets lately, mostly to get international
attention, but never more than a hundred people.

With regard to labor conflicts, in recent months there has been a massive
curtailment of rights. And it's not that there was an active labor movement in
Ukraine before. There were only a few work stoppages and strikes with
demonstrations, mostly by miners, in the few remaining industrial areas of
Ukraine around Lvov or Krivoy Rog. But even they are seen only as a means of
protecting the state from corrupt oligarchs. So there are no big hopes.

APCD: The war in Ukraine is often interpreted as a proxy war between NATO and
Russia. But shouldn't we be aware that Russia is dominated by an aggressive
revanchist ideology, according to which Ukraine is an artificial entity without
its own culture and does not deserve sovereignty? Some publications there even
call for "de-Ukrainization", meaning the eradication of the country's cultural
identity. How will you respond to the demand to take sides in this conflict? Of
course, if we proceed from the inter-imperialist nature of the conflict, then the
position will be strictly neutral. But (some say - translation.) Isn't this
cynical, isn't it just a denial of the Ukrainian people's right to self-defense
against the Russian war of aggression?

Andrei: In answer to your last question: the accusation of "neutrality" - that
Ukrainians are denied the right to self-defense - in my eyes has nothing to do
with radical politics. Basically, this comes from people who would rather repeat
empty slogans about solidarity than think about what is needed for a real
liberation movement. These are empty slogans, because there is no strong
left-radical or at least simply leftist movement anymore, especially in Russia
and Ukraine. Our job should be to consider what are the conditions for our
release and what class segments still have something to gain.

Questions like: "Are you, as a defeatist revolutionary, demanding that Ukrainians
go to certain death?" seems to me just as stupid and misleading as the answer to
this: "Are you demanding that I stop being a communist and give up the
achievements of European civilization?" Both questions point to a class structure
problem. A problem that has not yet been solved, which can only be solved in a
historical perspective. But our task as communists is not to dismiss the idea of
communism as stupid or utopian, but rather to expose such accusations as unfounded.

Revolutionary defeatism does not mean a call to the Ukrainian population to lay
down their arms and surrender. It is about understanding what kind of resistance
can destroy the Russian-nationalist machine of mass destruction. It certainly
includes conscientious objectors and strikers in Ukraine, Russia and the Donbass.
It does not matter whether such actions against the war are consciously or
unconsciously carried out, because in any case they contribute to creating an
atmosphere of dissatisfaction with the current situation. The preservation of
private property means that sectors such as transport, logistics, food, heating
cannot function without fossil fuels, and the military machine causes great
suffering to the civilian population behind the front lines on both the Russian
and Ukrainian sides.

The specifics of this war make us reconsider some positions and old strategies.
Both warring countries currently have more police forces than military forces, or
about the same if you count National Guard personnel not directly involved in the
war, such as border guards. Most of them in the rear make sure that everyone
obeys supposedly natural patriotism. To end the misery caused by the endless
accumulation of capital, it is required to defeat and disintegrate the police
forces, and not just fight them in the streets.

This raises many questions about how conventional wars are fought today,
dependent on financial flows and unreliable supplies of fossil fuels and weapons.
It is difficult for me to imagine a liberation movement that does not affect the
various theaters of war, front lines and rear. One must fight the illusions that
are often created by wars. An organization that wants to challenge the status quo
in Ukraine needs to think about how to expand and defend itself against the
police and various nationalists. As communists, we must proceed from the fact
that not only in Ukraine, but also in Russia, a social movement can develop that
will stop the war machine. Especially now, when most of the Russian army will
consist of conscripts.

We must look beyond national borders, because what kind of social movement can
develop in Ukraine depends not only on local conditions. The state budget of
Ukraine is currently dependent on monthly loans and bonds. The movement could
also start somewhere in the Third World and then spread to Europe, Russia and
Ukraine. Movements could develop simultaneously and inspire each other. And this
could eventually lead to the fact that the soldiers at the front lay down their
arms and make an alliance with each other.

Original published: https://communaut.org/de/hinter-den-frontlinien

https://aitrus.info/node/6051
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